Help optimizing SW trigger action? Comparing TK Custom, Apex Tactical and RevUp hammer set ups for SW revolvers?

[wanttolearn]

Hello, I'm trying to improve the trigger/hammer quality, pull weight and reset qualities in my somewhat new albeit stock SW 696 plus performance model revolver. I've got a few hundred rounds through it.

 

I'm hoping to get some information on which modifications might be best suited for competition and fun range use (not carry).
 

I've spent much of my years shooting and occasionally competing with the 1911 and competition shotguns so I've developed and gained comfort and competence with a very light, short take-up and defined reset and break.

 

I'm not expecting a 1911 trigger quality in the revolver but i'd sure like to get a somewhat similar type of action feel or quality. I do understand that the trigger action's are rather dissimilar in the these formats.

 

I'm fairly competent and safe with polishing, using fine stones and changing out springs.

 

Perhaps if it is possible to summarize some of the most significant pros and cons that would surely help me.

 

I'd very much appreciate your help.

[AzShooter]

I don't think Apex is selling their Mass Drive Hammer right now, if they are buy one.  If not go with the RevUpAction Hammer.  I have two.  They are very good.  Smooth and reliable even though you trigger pull may be heavier it will feel supper smooth and that's what counts.

 

 

[wanttolearn]

AzShooter....i went to the Apex Tactical site and they list 2 hammers for the SW K,L frame models, the Mass Drive Hammer and the Evolution IV Hammer. In your experience is the former preferable to the latter?

[Toolguy]

If you go to the https://revupaction.com website, you can see 3, 15 second videos of different action setups on the home page.

 

I invented and built a special trigger pull gage to show what the trigger is doing all the way through the pull. No one else shows what you would get by using their product.

 

#1 - Shows what an average out of the box 12# trigger pull is doing.

 

#2 -Shows what just trading hammers, but keeping the 12# starting point is doing. You can see that even if you have the mainspring dialed up to 12#, it still goes all the way down to 4# by the end. You can dial the action up or down to fire any primers. This hammer needs a factory S&W mainspring, not aftermarket one.

 

#3 - Shows what a gun tuned for Federal primers looks like. It starts at 7# and goes down to about 2.5#

 

This gives you the convenience and speed of DA with the shot placement control of SA, all in one.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Toolguy

[wanttolearn]

thank you for responding, i'll take a look at the link just now

[DukeSoprano]

Do you reload?

[ysrracer]

2 hours ago, DukeSoprano said:

Do you reload?

 

That's really the issue. Factory ammo has primers that are seated "softly".

[practical_man]

7 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

That's really the issue. Factory ammo has primers that are seated "softly".

That might be the understatement of the century. 
 

Factory ammo isn’t very consistent in my revolvers. About 1 time in 50 I will get a click instead of a bang. Annoying as hell and tends to add considerable time to my already slow run. 

[gargoil66]

13 hours ago, wanttolearn said:

Hello, I'm trying to improve the trigger/hammer quality, pull weight and reset qualities in my somewhat new albeit stock SW 696 plus performance model revolver. I've got a few hundred rounds through it.

 

I'm hoping to get some information on which modifications might be best suited for competition and fun range use (not carry).
 

I've spent much of my years shooting and occasionally competing with the 1911 and competition shotguns so I've developed and gained comfort and competence with a very light, short take-up and defined reset and break.

 

I'm not expecting a 1911 trigger quality in the revolver but i'd sure like to get a somewhat similar type of action feel or quality. I do understand that the trigger action's are rather dissimilar in the these formats.

 

I'm fairly competent and safe with polishing, using fine stones and changing out springs.

 

Perhaps if it is possible to summarize some of the most significant pros and cons that would surely help me.

 

I'd very much appreciate your help.

WTL:

 

I have a TK and APEX trigger and hammer combo in two revolvers.  A Grand Master trigger in another.  And the RevUpAction hammer in another.

 

The only one I found to be truly 'drop in' is the RevUpAction hammer.  However, it has a much different pull characteristic than a conventional hammer and it takes some time to get used to it. 

 

To me, a toss up between the TK and APEX kits but TK will install and tune theirs, APEX only sells the kits.  Between the two, I prefer the TK but I also had them install and tune it.  

 

Normally, the TK or APEX will require some technical and detailed gunsmithing for them to work as well as they were made and this sort of gunsmithing is way over my head.

 

So, you can get either and have about the same result.  Just depends on how well you understand and are willing to deal with all the other parts in the revolver related to the ease and reliability of the trigger pull and hammer.

 

GG

[DukeSoprano]

I have been installing, Apex, TK Diamond and even carving up stock hammers in N frames and all are around 5LB trigger pulls with Wilson Combat springs. Of course we all use federal primers

[wanttolearn]

great information...and thank you all for posting.

 

For my purposes It would be optimal if the revolver would perform well, safely and reliably with both factory and hand loads. If it's too much of a compromise then it sounds like I should pick up .38 special reloading dies and Federal primers and begin reloading for this specific revolver.

 

I have been reloading for long range rifle for many years now however, I have generally relied upon factory loads for my handguns.

 

 

[pskys2]

Tk custom hammer is the lightest and takes minor fitting of the da sear.

If you're a uspsa member and get front sight magazine check last years issues, spring time I think, I published an article there on this issue.

[wanttolearn]

pskys2, thank you. unfortunately no longer a member (physical disability). if you happened to still have a copy i'd sure love to read it.

[matteekay]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:32 PM, wanttolearn said:

great information...and thank you all for posting.

 

For my purposes It would be optimal if the revolver would perform well, safely and reliably with both factory and hand loads. If it's too much of a compromise then it sounds like I should pick up .38 special reloading dies and Federal primers and begin reloading for this specific revolver.

 

I have been reloading for long range rifle for many years now however, I have generally relied upon factory loads for my handguns.

 

 

 

I think your best bet would be to send the gun to TK for the "basic" action job and tell Eli that you still want to use factory ammo. The quality of work you get for the price is unbeatable. 

 

Having said that - the RevUp really is a revolutionary system, and truly drop-in. About the only negative I have with it is it changes the pull so drastically that it's sort of jarring if you're used to the traditional long, stacking pull of a double-action revolver. If you're not... well, it could be the ticket. As others have said, it won't make your trigger lighter on its own but it will make it way, way smoother.

[ysrracer]

56 minutes ago, matteekay said:

On 10/24/2023 at 9:32 AM, wanttolearn said:

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by ysrracer

[ysrracer]

56 minutes ago, matteekay said:

I think your best bet would be to send the gun to TK for the "basic" action job and tell Eli that you still want to use factory ammo. The quality of work you get for the price is unbeatable. 

 

I would agree.

[wanttolearn]

thank you. looking into it

[Toolguy]

9 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

I think your best bet would be to send the gun to TK for the "basic" action job and tell Eli that you still want to use factory ammo. The quality of work you get for the price is unbeatable. 

 

Having said that - the RevUp really is a revolutionary system, and truly drop-in. About the only negative I have with it is it changes the pull so drastically that it's sort of jarring if you're used to the traditional long, stacking pull of a double-action revolver. If you're not... well, it could be the ticket. As others have said, it won't make your trigger lighter on its own but it will make it way, way smoother.

 

Thanks for the good words, Matt. Actually, if you watch the videos, it does make it lighter. It starts out at the normal weight for the mainspring tension, but gets lighter as you go back, until at the end, you're mostly just pulling against the rebound spring. Most of my guns with the RevUp hammer (Federal primers) start at around 6.5-7 lb. and go down to around 3-3.5 lb. by the end of the trigger pull. That is single action pull weight.

[ysrracer]

On a related question, when somebody says "my gun has a 6 pound trigger" does that mean it's 6 pounds all the way thru until it fires?

[matteekay]

47 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

On a related question, when somebody says "my gun has a 6 pound trigger" does that mean it's 6 pounds all the way thru until it fires?

 

Most trigger gauges (not Toolguy's fancy one) only show maximum pull weight. So really, they're saying "my gun has a six pound trigger at max".

Edited October 30, 2023 by matteekay

[Toolguy]

Most trigger pull gages are set up to record the highest pull weight. That is the reading people are talking about when they say my trigger is xx lbs. The reality is that the trigger pull is ever changing throughout the length of pull, but you can't tell it on a hand held gage. I made a bench mounted gage that eliminates the human factor that shows the pull weight through the full cycle. You can see this on the videos at the https://RevUpAction.com website.

 

The S&W leaf mainspring actions get slightly lighter as you pull the trigger. For example, an average factory setup will start at around 12 lb. at the beginning, and ramp down to around 9 lb. by the end. With the RevUp hammer, starting at 12 lb., it will go down to 4 or 5 lb. by the end, depending on what rebound spring is in it. With the RevUp hammer dialed down to 7 lb. and an 11 lb. rebound spring, it starts at 7 and ramps down to around 3. I have a couple that go down to 2.5.

 

You can set the starting point at whatever it needs to be to fire the primers you're using. It will smoothly ramp down to whatever the rebound spring pull is, or just a bit more, with the hammer and mainspring out of the gun.

 

I don't have a Ruger with coil mainspring to put on the gage to see what it does. The common consensus is that the coil springs stack (get heavier) as they are compressed. That may or may not be the case, due to the interaction of the hammer and trigger.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Toolguy

[AzShooter]

On 10/23/2023 at 5:26 PM, wanttolearn said:

AzShooter....i went to the Apex Tactical site and they list 2 hammers for the SW K,L frame models, the Mass Drive Hammer and the Evolution IV Hammer. In your experience is the former preferable to the latter?

Sorry it took me so long to answer.  I've been away for a while shooting my bows instead of guns.  

 

I used the Evolution IV hammer for years and was pleased with it.  I was able to get  very reliable 7.5 - 8 pound DA trigger out of it that fired 100%.  When Apex had an open house I wanted them to look at my gun and see if I could do anything better with it and they introduced me to the new Mass Drive Hammer and gave me the first one for public purposed.

 

It too is a drop in Hammer.  I set my 6 inch 617 up with it and set the trigger pull at 7 pounds.  It feels nice and smooth and works with Remington Golden Bullets that way.  With CCI I have to up it to almost 9 pounds for reliable ignition.  I know someone with better hobby gunsmithing skills could do better than that.

 

I do like the Mass Drive better.  I also like the fact that it retains single action for those times I want to bench my gun to see how accurate and zero in my sights.

 

[Joe4d]

Alot of these mods will cause you to be restricted to federal primers in reloaded ammo.
.. Personally I have no use for a gun that wont shoot what I put in it.
Clean it,, polish some areas without changing any angles,, dry fire it,, call it good.


 

[AzShooter]

8 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Alot of these mods will cause you to be restricted to federal primers in reloaded ammo.
.. Personally I have no use for a gun that wont shoot what I put in it.
Clean it,, polish some areas without changing any angles,, dry fire it,, call it good.


 

We are talking about 617s, You are not restricted to Federal PRIMERS.  With all .22s you have to find the ammo that works best.  My 617s shoot a variety of ammo with no problems.  

 

[Joe4d]

16 minutes ago, AzShooter said:

We are talking about 617s, You are not restricted to Federal PRIMERS.  With all .22s you have to find the ammo that works best.  My 617s shoot a variety of ammo with no problems.  

 

different thread,,, yeh the 617 is heavy and is its own animal,, talking 696 here , although I think op meant 686