Fixed Time and Make Up Shots

[barry]

 OK I'll buy that. I assume only coarse of action is throw stage out or re-shoot everyone after correcting wsb?

[barry]

I rember those days fondly. 

[facedown]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

There was a time in this sport, apparently now long forgotten, when folks had enough sense to understand what fault lines were and the automatic consequences of shooting outside the lines.  Now we have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area.  Oh for the simpler days ...

Where's the "like" button when you need it.

[broadside72]

I guess I just don't understand the point of having a fixed time stage (or virginia for that matter) where the number of allowed shots exceeds the number of hits used for score. So to me, "Best N for score", implies the max number of hits per target. But the rules do not explicitly call for that. 

 

Otherwise it is basically a Comstock CoF with no steel but a time limit. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by broadside72

[RJH]

For anybody confused read the WSB on something like 6n6 challenge. It's a classifier and it stays "only" two rounds per Target or something to that effect.

 

"Best two hits" only tells you what should be scored, it has nothing to do with how many you fire at a Target. Because if we are scoring best two hits and you shoot it three times, you don't get two alphas and a Charlie, you only get the two alphas. It has zero to do with how many rounds can be fired at the Target, only what gets scored on that Target.

 

The WSB was screwed up that's all there is to this.

 

As far as what's implied, or how it used to be, none of that crap matters. USPSA embraces freestyle, if you can't deal with that, this sport may not be for you LOL. I suggest three gun or IDPA where they try to tell you exactly what to do always

 

I've only been doing this for 18 or 19 years, so I don't know if that's long enough ago for me to remember how it used to be, but in those 18 or 19 years it's always been a freestyle.

 

We have a rule book for a reason, follow it. And don't be pissed when somebody finds a hole in your stage, learn from it

[broadside72]

27 minutes ago, RJH said:

For anybody confused read the WSB on something like 6n6 challenge. It's a classifier and it stays "only" two rounds per Target or something to that effect.

<snip>

We have a rule book for a reason, follow it. And don't be pissed when somebody finds a hole in your stage, learn from it

I understand what you are saying. I just don't understand having a Fixed Time stage without declaring a per target limit while ignoring the best N part of the WSB and it still being fixed time.

 

A fixed time stage by definition has a limit to the number of shots so if you declare it fixed time and don't provide that detail, it's not a legal stage right? Fix the WSB and reshoot it as needed, or toss it.  

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

I understand what you are saying. I just don't understand having a Fixed Time stage without declaring a per target limit while ignoring the best N part of the WSB and it still being fixed time.

 

A fixed time stage by definition has a limit to the number of shots so if you declare it fixed time and don't provide that detail, it's not a legal stage right? Fix the WSB and reshoot it as needed, or toss it.  

this is somewhat what I think. fix it before the match or toss the stage. This seems similar to a situation where you have a virginia count stage, but don't specify the # of shots. If you simply assume 2 cuz it usually is, and someone shoots only 1, you can't really penalize them..... at that point you have to fix the wsb and reshoot.

 

however if the wsb says fixed time, and it also says best 2 per target, or 2 per target, or in any way suggests 2 per target, that is enough for me, and I would say based on the definition of fixed time, you get extra hits for anything more than 2.

 

OTOH, if the wsb says fixed time, 14 shots, 7 targets, but never specifies 2 per target, you may have a problem. the best solution is to fix the wsb and have the shooter reshoot the first time someone does something that doesn't make sense for a fixed time stage. If the stage has been scored incorrectly for other shooters, then either make them reshoot, or toss the stage and make a legal stage next time. To be honest, we have done fixed time stages at our local match, and only specified the total  number of targets and shots, and not had a problem..... but if we did have a problem, I would have clarified the wsb, mocked the shooter for being lame, and then made them reshoot.

Edited August 29, 2023 by motosapiens

[RJH]

Yeah, pretty much have to reshoot the first shooter that does it incorrectly according to how the mass director actually wanted it shot, then rewrite the WSB correctly.

 

The only difference is I would mock the guy who wrote this s***** WSB and not the shooter trying to game the s*** out of it. But, I'm a guy who's wrote a lot of wsbs, had some of them gamed and learned how to write them correctly, and I'm also a guy who will game s*** if I can

[Nik Habicht]

On 8/29/2023 at 10:35 AM, Schutzenmeister said:

There was a time in this sport, apparently now long forgotten, when folks had enough sense to understand what fault lines were and the automatic consequences of shooting outside the lines.  Now we have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area.  Oh for the simpler days ...

....and apparently that time was pre-2001, because I heard that same sentiment from the old shooters at my first match.....

 

[Nik Habicht]

On 8/29/2023 at 10:35 AM, Schutzenmeister said:

There was a time in this sport, apparently now long forgotten, when folks had enough sense to understand what fault lines were and the automatic consequences of shooting outside the lines.  Now we have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area.  Oh for the simpler days ...

....and apparently that time was pre-2001, because I heard that same sentiment from the old shooters at my first match.....

 

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, Nik Habicht said:

....and apparently that time was pre-2001, because I heard that same sentiment from the old shooters at my first match.....

 

Yea @Nik Habicht, but you already KNEW I was older than dirt!

 

Too many folks like to use the montra of "Freestyle" as a rubber crutch to dance around the rules.  Let's consider what is and is not in the rules:

 

1st - There is NO requirement in the rules anywhere that I can find stating you MUST tell the shooter in the WSB that he has to shoot from inside the shooting area.  If you can find that verbige, please let me know where it is!

 

Given the above, let's look at what the rules DO say:

 

1.1.5 Freestyle - This generally allows shooters to solve the challenge in any manner they choose (subject to the rules) but goes on to say: "However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances."  Newsflash ... A fault line is a physical limitation.

 

2.2.1 Discusses numerous physical barriers, including fault lines.  2.2.1.1 discusses how to build them, and 2.2.1.2 what a shooting area is ... to include fault lines.

 

3.2 Covers the WSB.  Nowhere in there does it say you have to tell the shooter he must shoot targets from within the shooting area.

 

10.2.1 (along with 10.2.1.1 and 10.2.1.2) specifies penalties for shooting while violating fault lines.  I think most of us are familiar with it, so I'll not reprint the whole thing here.

 

Given that the use of physical limitations is authorized by the definition of Freestyle, that 2.2.1 covers how to construct fault lines and that they help form the shooting area, that there is NO requirement to include that information in the WSB under 3.2, and FINALLY that 10.2.1 spells out penalties for the specific act of violating a fault line while shooting, I must ask:

 

Why then, in heavan's name, do we need to TELL someone in the Procedures section of the WSB what is already put forth in the rules - i.e., you CAN shoot from outside the shooting area, but you WILL BE SCORED ACCORDINGLY!

 

FWIW, the rules are virtually identical under IPSC on this.  However, what I virtually never see is anyone in the rest of the world having to be told in the briefing that they must shoot from inside the shooting area.  Is the ROTW really that much smarter than we are?  Or do we just have more DRLs?

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Yea @Nik Habicht, but you already KNEW I was older than dirt!

 

Too many folks like to use the montra of "Freestyle" as a rubber crutch to dance around the rules.  Let's consider what is and is not in the rules:

 

1st - There is NO requirement in the rules anywhere that I can find stating you MUST tell the shooter in the WSB that he has to shoot from inside the shooting area.  If you can find that verbige, please let me know where it is!

 

Given the above, let's look at what the rules DO say:

 

1.1.5 Freestyle - This generally allows shooters to solve the challenge in any manner they choose (subject to the rules) but goes on to say: "However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances."  Newsflash ... A fault line is a physical limitation.

 

2.2.1 Discusses numerous physical barriers, including fault lines.  2.2.1.1 discusses how to build them, and 2.2.1.2 what a shooting area is ... to include fault lines.

 

3.2 Covers the WSB.  Nowhere in there does it say you have to tell the shooter he must shoot targets from within the shooting area.

 

10.2.1 (along with 10.2.1.1 and 10.2.1.2) specifies penalties for shooting while violating fault lines.  I think most of us are familiar with it, so I'll not reprint the whole thing here.

 

Given that the use of physical limitations is authorized by the definition of Freestyle, that 2.2.1 covers how to construct fault lines and that they help form the shooting area, that there is NO requirement to include that information in the WSB under 3.2, and FINALLY that 10.2.1 spells out penalties for the specific act of violating a fault line while shooting, I must ask:

 

Why then, in heavan's name, do we need to TELL someone in the Procedures section of the WSB what is already put forth in the rules - i.e., you CAN shoot from outside the shooting area, but you WILL BE SCORED ACCORDINGLY!

 

FWIW, the rules are virtually identical under IPSC on this.  However, what I virtually never see is anyone in the rest of the world having to be told in the briefing that they must shoot from inside the shooting area.  Is the ROTW really that much smarter than we are?  Or do we just have more DRLs?

 

 

Well, imagine you have a square shooting area. You do not put shooters must shoot from within the fault lines in the WSB. Half of the squads think that inside the shooting area is the shooting area, and half the squads think that outside of the shooting area is the shooting area. Now you get to toss the stage because you don't know how to right a WSB.

 

 

For what it's worth I have seen this happen at a match. The shooting area was an arked line, some of the squads thought behind the line was the shooting area and some thought it was in front of the line. It was kind of an odd stage where either one of those could seem correct. If only it had been written or shown correctly in the WSB.......

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Yea @Nik Habicht, but you already KNEW I was older than dirt!

 

Too many folks like to use the montra of "Freestyle" as a rubber crutch to dance around the rules.  Let's consider what is and is not in the rules:

 

1st - There is NO requirement in the rules anywhere that I can find stating you MUST tell the shooter in the WSB that he has to shoot from inside the shooting area.  If you can find that verbige, please let me know where it is!

 

Given the above, let's look at what the rules DO say:

 

1.1.5 Freestyle - This generally allows shooters to solve the challenge in any manner they choose (subject to the rules) but goes on to say: "However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances."  Newsflash ... A fault line is a physical limitation.

 

2.2.1 Discusses numerous physical barriers, including fault lines.  2.2.1.1 discusses how to build them, and 2.2.1.2 what a shooting area is ... to include fault lines.

 

3.2 Covers the WSB.  Nowhere in there does it say you have to tell the shooter he must shoot targets from within the shooting area.

 

10.2.1 (along with 10.2.1.1 and 10.2.1.2) specifies penalties for shooting while violating fault lines.  I think most of us are familiar with it, so I'll not reprint the whole thing here.

 

Given that the use of physical limitations is authorized by the definition of Freestyle, that 2.2.1 covers how to construct fault lines and that they help form the shooting area, that there is NO requirement to include that information in the WSB under 3.2, and FINALLY that 10.2.1 spells out penalties for the specific act of violating a fault line while shooting, I must ask:

 

Why then, in heavan's name, do we need to TELL someone in the Procedures section of the WSB what is already put forth in the rules - i.e., you CAN shoot from outside the shooting area, but you WILL BE SCORED ACCORDINGLY!

 

FWIW, the rules are virtually identical under IPSC on this.  However, what I virtually never see is anyone in the rest of the world having to be told in the briefing that they must shoot from inside the shooting area.  Is the ROTW really that much smarter than we are?  Or do we just have more DRLs?

 

Also "procedure" under 3.2, is exactly the place that you would tell somebody where to shoot from. And it's a requirement. And I think it has been for basically ever

[Joe4d]

may not be a requireemnt.. But you dont have a shooting area, if you dont define a shooting area.
The shooting area is defined in the WSB,, not on the ground..
Case in point..  A box on the ground.. WSB says,, Start position standing in box, hands at side.. yadda yadda.
At signal engage t1-t-6
I see that as the box is simply the start position,,  and I am gonna move if it helps me..
You cant just decide that box is te shooting area unless you spell it out in the WSB as a shooting area.

[Schutzenmeister]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Also "procedure" under 3.2, is exactly the place that you would tell somebody where to shoot from. And it's a requirement. And I think it has been for basically ever

Yes ... 3.2, Procedure is Where one would insert that information.

 

Again, IF it is a requirement, kindly tell me exactly Where in the rules it says that.

 

And no, it has NOT "been for basically ever." (I've been in the sport long enough to make that observation.)

[Schutzenmeister]

27 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

may not be a requireemnt.. But you dont have a shooting area, if you dont define a shooting area.
The shooting area is defined in the WSB,, not on the ground..
Case in point..  A box on the ground.. WSB says,, Start position standing in box, hands at side.. yadda yadda.
At signal engage t1-t-6
I see that as the box is simply the start position,,  and I am gonna move if it helps me..
You cant just decide that box is te shooting area unless you spell it out in the WSB as a shooting area.

The construction of the shooting area in and of itself defines the shooting area else WHY go to the trouble of nailing sticks to the ground and painting them red or orange.  If all that is needed is a starting position, just paint an X on the ground and say start here ... Then the ABSENCE of fault lines tells you you're free to go anywhere.  I've seen that, too.

 

Edit to add: We see a lot of things now being done that are done because of DRLs and what has become standard convention to deal with them instead of dealing with the situation.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Schutzenmeister

[RJH]

51 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Yes ... 3.2, Procedure is Where one would insert that information.

 

Again, IF it is a requirement, kindly tell me exactly Where in the rules it says that.

 

And no, it has NOT "been for basically ever." (I've been in the sport long enough to make that observation.)

 

3.2 says procedure is a requirement, so you answered your own question in where the rules say that exactly.

 

Also 10.2.2 says a competitor will get a procedural if he doesn't comply with the stage breathing. How are you going to give a competitor a procedural for not complying with the WSB if you don't describe in the WSB where the shooting area is?

 

I've only been doing this for about 19 years, but as I recall the WSB has required a procedure all that time. I don't have a rule book that old in front of me, but if you do maybe you can point out the difference

 

If you want implied wsbs, maybe IDPA is your name

Edited September 2, 2023 by RJH

[Schutzenmeister]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

3.2 says procedure is a requirement, so you answered your own question in where the rules say that exactly.

 

Also 10.2.2 says a competitor will get a procedural if he doesn't comply with the stage breathing. How are you going to give a competitor a procedural for not complying with the WSB if you don't describe in the WSB where the shooting area is?

 

I've only been doing this for about 19 years, but as I recall the WSB has required a procedure all that time. I don't have a rule book that old in front of me, but if you do maybe you can point out the difference

 

If you want implied wsbs, maybe IDPA is your name

 

I've been in the game for over 30 years now.  Yes, a stated procedure IS a requirement.  Telling the shooter to shoot the targets after the start signal IS a procedure.  Not faulting lines while shooting is NOT a procedure, it's covered by the rules.  And finally, you're relying on the wrong rule.  Penalties for firing a shot while faulting are covered under 10.2.1, not 10.2.2.  Faulting a line while shooting is a Specified penalty, NOT a violation of "procedure." It has nothing to do with "implying" anything in the WSB, rather it isn't necessary to spoon-feed already existing rules to the shooter in the WSB.

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

I've been in the game for over 30 years now.  Yes, a stated procedure IS a requirement.  Telling the shooter to shoot the targets after the start signal IS a procedure.  Not faulting lines while shooting is NOT a procedure, it's covered by the rules.  And finally, you're relying on the wrong rule.  Penalties for firing a shot while faulting are covered under 10.2.1, not 10.2.2.  Faulting a line while shooting is a Specified penalty, NOT a violation of "procedure." It has nothing to do with "implying" anything in the WSB, rather it isn't necessary to spoon-feed already existing rules to the shooter in the WSB.

 

 

If you don't define a shooting area in the wsb, there is no shooting area. It's not spoon feeding, it's specifying. If you think otherwise, you're wrong. There's a reason every classifier and every stage at every major list what the shooting area is.

 

If you write a WSB and don't state the shooting area, get ready for people to shoot wherever the hell they want. And if you get mad about it and try and give them a procedural you will lose an arbitration. You're wrong, best  to adjust your thinking to what is correct

 

3.2 list procedure. Part of a procedure is defining a shooting area. If you can't get that that's on you, not me.

 

Have a good one

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm dealing with luddites and troglodytes.  Procedures do not define the shooting area, rules do.  The reason it gets stated in the WSB is because of folks like you who do not understand that and it has become standard convention.

 

Tell me this ... If I fail to tell you not to break the 180 while shooting can I still DQ you when you do, or is that something covered by the rules which I don't need to tell you?  Yeah, a stretched out example, but it's the same principle.  If it's already in the rules it need not be separately briefed.

[RJH]

C

 

Here is you a super simple reason why fault lines need to be defined under the procedurals in the WSB.

 

Imagine all the down range hash marks are targets. The three big hash marks are walls. Area B is the shooting area, area a is a box that is specifically not the shooting area. If you don't define what the hell is and is not the shooting area, people will be shooting from box a, or maybe area B, because they're not quite sure what the hell the shooting area is.

 

I know the drawing is a little rough, I just sketched on my phone super quick. Hopefully this will make you understand why you're wrong though

 

PS engage all targets from shooting area B, and area a is specifically not a shooting area, is 100% a procedure

 

PPS I'm not jacking with your straw man argument about the 180

[Schutzenmeister]

We're I called to review this design I'd ask some questions ...

 

What is the purpose of A?  A starting position?  Eliminate A and put a board on the ground to mark the starting position.  The fault lines of B are adequate per the rules, but you may want to close the back side of the area to prevent unnecessary retreat.

 

Is A simply a "don't shoot from here" area?  Then close off the up range portion of B with fault lines in such a way as to eliminate it as a shooting area.

 

WSBs tend to be too long and verbose.  Good stage design and set up generally renders that excess wording unnecessary.

 

Principle:  K.I.S.S.  It really does work.

 

p.s.  Your sketch isn't bad.  Trust me ... I've dealt with worse!

[Barcode1337]

21 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

... There's a reason every classifier and every stage at every major list what the shooting area is.

 

I have seen classifiers relatively consistently state "Box A", "Box B", etc. But I rarely, if ever have seen the shooting area actually "defined" in a major match's briefing. It simply says something to the effect of, "engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting are". Language like that still can confuse people that are doing their best to not be reasonable. 

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Barcode1337 said:

I have seen classifiers relatively consistently state "Box A", "Box B", etc. But I rarely, if ever have seen the shooting area actually "defined" in a major match's briefing. It simply says something to the effect of, "engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting are". Language like that still can confuse people that are doing their best to not be reasonable. 

 

 

Fair enough lol. But it does say within the shooting area or something along those lines, defining that there is in fact a shooting area where your shots are supposed to come from. Which was kinda my point. 

 

And yes, most the time it's plainly obvious what the shooting area is, but there is occasions when it is less so. Like the stage I mentioned earlier where the fault line was just a big arc, and some of the squads shot in front of the arc and some from behind. Would have been real handy if that was a little better defined in the WSB

 

 

Anyway, we strayed quite a ways from fixed time and makeup shots LOL

[shred]

Hell, in the old days we had a "scenario" in the WSB.  When I miss those days I go shoot some IDPA.

 

More on-topic, we shot a version of the FT stage from the Nationals match book yesterday.  Good fun, penalties applied for extra hits on a per-target basis and extra shots for any over 16 and that worked. 

 

On a MD note, setting up a FT stage to avoid a massive tie in stage scores takes some care.  I aimed for 'top shooters can get to all the targets in time... barely'.   It could also be interesting as "top shooters can get all the points... barely" which would give a different sort of pressure, but just a tad too easy and you get the big-tie-at-the-top situation.