Carry optics,, thumb rest

[EEH]

Is a thumb rest legal on carry optics gun?

I looked on line can’t find anything. I’m guessing it’s ok .

[dapribek]

Hi, I thought CO guns were Production guns with slide mounted optics. I don’t believe thumb rests are allowed in Production and so they aren’t allowed in CO either. If you’re set on using a thumb rest, you might want to check and see if they’re allowed in Limited Optics. Hope this helps. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

34 minutes ago, EEH said:

Is a thumb rest legal on carry optics gun?

I looked on line can’t find anything. I’m guessing it’s ok .

Thumbrests are not legal in uspsa or idpa CO division.    There are “thumbrests” that replace takedown levers and slide stops that are legal but not every one of them on the market are approved.  

[Stmark73]

Frame mounted thumbrest in IDPA CO/ESP is legal as long as it fits the box, in my understanding of the rule. As long as the  thumbrest is thin enough for the box to be closed shut. 

[truespode]

For USPSA as long as it is part of the take down lever it is legal.

https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/is-that-thumb-rest-legal/

[VeilAndrew]

Take a look at Tevo Sports and Align Tactical. They both make CO legal thumb rests. I run a Tevo Sports thumbrest for CZ75 on my Shadow 2. Didn't even get a second look at the equipment table at a major I was at last month.

[EEH]

Right now I’m shooting a canik . Only way I see is drill holes. Christian sailer has one on his gun, don’t know what kind it is.

[whan]

1 hour ago, VeilAndrew said:

Take a look at Tevo Sports and Align Tactical. They both make CO legal thumb rests. I run a Tevo Sports thumbrest for CZ75 on my Shadow 2. Didn't even get a second look at the equipment table at a major I was at last month.

 

If Christian Sailer was allowed to use one and won with one at nats, I'm sure it's fine for the rest of us

[EEH]

Watch his latest video , you can see it, but it may be part of takedown lever. 

[broadside72]

The are not thumb rests. They are oversized take down levers. 

[Blackstone45]

I'm almost certain Christian runs the TEVO sports CZ thumblock, which yes replaces the slide stop

https://tevosports.com/products/tevo-cz-thumblock-pro

[EEH]

Probably right.

[IVC]

Whenever you have a question about gear or configuration, the best place to start is the rule book itself. 

 

Appendix D7, rule 21.4 tells you that grips cannot be "modified to create a thumb rest." But this is only about the grips. Most of the limitations on allowable modifications come from the rules 21 and 22 which both specify that you have to be able to justify a modification is allowed, or it's a bump to Open. 

 

So, as broadside72 points out above, what passes for a "thumb rest" in CO is some other external part that is allowed to be replaced under 21.6 and that by pure coincidence (sarcasm) also serves a very useful purpose of being a pseudo-thumb rest. 

[IVC]

Another good reason to always start with the rule book (and this is "rules" sub-forum) is that when you get certified at any level by the NROI, you learn that EVERY decision you make MUST be supported by a SPECIFIC rule. 

[mrvip27]

"Some of you may be asking, “But I have heard recently that aftermarket replacement small-parts that double as a thumb rest are allowed?” Yes, since March 2018, when the new Production and Carry Optics appendices were approved by the USPSA Board of Directors, the replacement of minor external components are allowed with factory and aftermarket parts (read more in this post). And there are some manufacturers that are making parts that are a bit wider than the factory parts and can be used as a thumb rest. Just remember that by adding width to your handgun, it may cause other problems. Your handgun must still fit into the USPSA box for Production (1 5/8″ depth) and fit into a non-race type holster for both Production and Carry Optics. Also remember that there are weight limits for Production and Carry Optics, so make sure your handgun still makes weight with the replacement part."

Edited July 7, 2023 by mrvip27

[RedDotsOnly]

It's all about the "thumb rest" which is a takedown lever/pin/something stock in the gun. Hope that helps. 

[SufferInSilence]

So, the NROI letter mentioned above is from 2019, a lot including pistol designs and nomenclature have changed a little since then.  
 

Yes, 21.4 does in fact say that “grips” cannot be modified to create a thumb rest.  - e.g. This means shaving down, melting, or adding material (like JB weld) to the lower frame/grip to create upon the existing surface of the of the grip, a thumb rest.  

Now, clearly, common sense reading of App 7 shows the context to refer separately to “grips” and “grip panels” as a potentially cohesive combination, therefore obviously denoting the lower half of the pistol as the “grip”.  These defining terms which, cover guns from CZ style with removable grip panels to plastic fantastics such as Glocks, XD, M&P etc…  

Cool, im fine with all that.  
 

Now my argument is in the case of the Canik Rival-S.  The rule says the grip cannot be “modified to create” a thumb rest.  The Rival’s grip is not “modified”… it’s created and specifically designed for it.  Canik even offers an OFM/OEM  thumb rest for that non-modified (factory created) area.  Therefore it’s not a ‘creation’ rather, an intentional design.   
 

Just as no slide lightening and slide ports are allowed in production, the Canik Rival has them and is still on the approved production list because they were intentionally manufactured with them.  

Similarly, the Ghost Hydra holster cannot honestly be considered “suitable for everyday use” with Race Gun holsters being specifically prohibited.  Yet… here they are in CO & Production because of a band of intentionally placed Kydex.  
 

So I’d say in the case of most guns it boils down to yes as long as it’s a takedown lever style implement.  Or in the case of the Canik Rival, intentionally designed for it.  

It’s really going to depend on what Gun it is, which argument you can make, and what prick is determined to bump you to Open for it.  

Edited September 19, 2023 by SufferInSilence

[ladyshooter]

Does anyone know of availability of Walther PPQ5 takedown lever with thumb rest? I only see one company that makes them but are out of stock for a while. 

[LDRIDER]

I am running a nitro fin on CZ S2 for CO. There is a "Legal" thumbshelf

for Glock as well. I believe its made by MJCustoms.

[LDRIDER]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:17 AM, ladyshooter said:

Does anyone know of availability of Walther PPQ5 takedown lever with thumb rest? I only see one company that makes them but are out of stock for a while. 

Drop Mark a note at MJCustoms.net. Hes been working on takedown

thumb shelves for several models. Might be worth the time to ask.

[IVC]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:53 PM, SufferInSilence said:

Now my argument is in the case of the Canik Rival-S.  The rule says the grip cannot be “modified to create” a thumb rest.  The Rival’s grip is not “modified”… it’s created and specifically designed for it.  Canik even offers an OFM/OEM  thumb rest for that non-modified (factory created) area.  Therefore it’s not a ‘creation’ rather, an intentional design.   

Rival-S does not have thumb rest in the version it is approved on the list. The fact that they offer an OEM part doesn't make it production legal any more than using an OEM magazine that is too long for division would make it legal in Limited or Open. 

 

While 21.4 talks about allowed grip modifications, it's rules D7 21 (the main section) and D7 22 that control allowed modifications in general. You can see adding a different grip to an approved gun as "modification of the grip",  or you can see it as any other modification of the gun (regardless of whether it's OEM or not). If it is a modification of an existing grip, it's not allowed. If it's not, it's a modification of the gun that must be explicitly allowed and you have to show which rule allows it. There is no such rule that allows that particular modification, so it's not allowed. 

[broadside72]

That Canik OFM thumb rest is not part of the approved firearm on the production list, so by adding the OFM part you are modifying the grip from the approved version and creating a thumb rest which is not permitted. Just like you can't add grip panels with a built in thumb rest but you can change panels without a thumb rest but adds swells for example. 

[SufferInSilence]

@IVC @broadside72 read my post again.  No where do I say say the thumb rest is legal for production division. Actually the app specifically say they are “not” allowed for production.  
The thread is called “Carry Optics thumb rest”. Production is dead…and not even a 15 round capacity is going to save that boring division. 
However, in CO you can have a thumb rest.  I have them, the current natz champ has them, and most every gamer I know in CO has them.  Even/especially Rival S folks.  So… neener neener….  

[broadside72]

13 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said:

@IVC @broadside72 read my post again.  No where do I say say the thumb rest is legal for production division. Actually the app specifically say they are “not” allowed for production.  
The thread is called “Carry Optics thumb rest”. Production is dead…and not even a 15 round capacity is going to save that boring division. 
However, in CO you can have a thumb rest.  I have them, the current natz champ has them, and most every gamer I know in CO has them.  Even/especially Rival S folks.  So… neener neener….  

 

You seem to fail to realize that any gun for carry optics must be on the production gun list. 

 

And those "thumb rests" you speak of are not thumb rests per the rules. They are oversized slide stops. Your specific question about the Canik Rival thumb rest is about modifying (adding a part is modifying) the grip by installing a part on the grip that creates a thumb rest which is not allowed. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by broadside72

[SufferInSilence]

Bro… the Rival-S is on the production list has been since FEB ‘23.  Think whatever you want.  I’ve seen “NO ONE” bumped out in CO so far for having a TR on a Rival S.   
Doesn’t matter though.  CO is about to be as dead as Production and L10 soon anyway specifically because of dumb asz rule interpretations like we are bickering about.  
 

CO was only relevant because LO didn’t exist yet.