Transitions

[Npoulson]

So i have this weird habit on close targets of pulling the second shot of the first target i either scrape a delta or its not there

i know what im doing i know why im doing it

nothing i have tried short of firing 3 fixes this issue i see the sights twice on the alpha

i believe my brain perceives this as the shot has been taken by reflex

i dont see it dragging off in live or dry

if i se up 3 targets 2 of ten times ill shoot alpha delta or mike on the first then 2 alpha 2 alpha sometimes charlies

any tips on how to correct this

it does not matter what platform or division 

this is a vision and timing issue but only on my draw target

its getting very frustrating 

i may not be looking at it right

i never had any formal training or had anyone look at my shooting

i never take video

i want to be able to fix this so i can keep the speed

if i slow down a touch it goes away but the fact is if im not doing this on two other targets why the first

thanks for any help

[Boomstick303]

It does not sound like you are properly shot calling or shot calling at all.  I use to think shot calling is where is seeing where the sights/dot is when I pull the trigger.  That is not correct.  It were the sights or dot is when the gun actually fires.  The gun can move a ton between pulling the trigger and the gun actually firing, especially if someone is mashing the trigger.   You indicate "I see the sights twice on the alpha".  Does this mean when you see where the sights are when you are aiming, pulling the trigger, or when the gun actually fires?  This seems more vision related and understanding what the gun is actually doing when it fires at speed.  

 

Another thing to consider is are you actually aiming every time on the clock?  I think a lot of people are indexing on targets when they are super close, and not necessarily aiming.    

 

I have not shot seriously with Iron sights, so I do not know if this statement is exactly as I perceive it, but what a dot does do in dry fire and live fire tells you exactly where that dot is at all times.  You see every wobble, streak, and place that dot goes.  I do not think it as refined when using iron sights.  Especially when it comes to alignment of the sights when the gun goes off and not just when the trigger is pulled.  Dots tell you everything.  To me that information seems a little more muddled/muted with iron sights.  What I am trying to indicate is this may be easier to diagnose using a dot.  

 

Video does help, and might help you zero in on what you are doing wrong.  Moving eyes too quick, moving the gun off the target too quick etc. 

 

   

 

[Npoulson]

I totally get what you are saying yes i am shot calling remember this is only on the first target off the draw

everything on a timer

the scenario is blake drill

i shoot it in 1.6 the first target could be delta mike 3 out of ten times alpha delta or alpha mike other targets fine

if i shoot the same drill slowed to about 1.9 the issue almost disappears ive been fighting this for 3 years

i recently switched to open due to getting a bit older 40 bc i just could not see irons fast enough anymore

what i believe is happening is my brain says i fired but i havent yet and the reason im struggling i dont know how to correct that

im guessing im anticipating a 13 split and sometimes it may be an 18 just long enough to pull off target

this started happening more when i wanted to get my transitions down

i shot tick tock the other night and had 4 alpha across three targets my 3rd target in that array was 3 alpha delta on the upper target in the wrong spot resulting in a mike and extra hit

its a super weird issue

how can you have great hits then all the sudden have this odd thing happening 

it’s totally holding me back and craping out my confidence in matches 

so i go to a match back way off to avoid penalties 

i can do well like that but at a bigger match results in an 85-90% finish bc i  backed way down 

unsure how to dryfire it out 

only thing i can come up with is to start over and retrain from nothing

like blake drill 3 sec 

for instance just for fun i shot a bill drill all alpha 1.28 

it’s frustrating 

maybe im doing it wrong  

[Npoulson]

I feel odd shooting video of myself i know a lot of guys do it and its a big help

i feel like i already look like an idiot not sure i wanna see it  

thats my issue with video

ill give it a serious try thats the only thing ive never done 

i watch tons of guys videos and they all look better than what i perceive i am doing

that may not be the case but i feel like i look like barny fife shooting  

[Twilk73]

After a match I do a mental evaluation of my performance and focus most of my training after that on my biggest issue. 
 

Why not focus on the problem at a slower pace and just keep increasing your speed until the problem happens or you iron it out. In theory when the problem happens after not happening previously at the slower speeds you might have an ahhhh moment. 
 

Im having trouble understanding your issue but follow up shots being thrown down can be from anticipation. Could also be that your finger is out running your brain but that don’t make much sense to me because that would mean your shooting before the gun is lined up but it sounds like you’re saying you fire when the dot is on target. 
 

I think you need a partner to watch you, if the problem is that bad and repeatable they should be able to witness it and help make a call as to what’s going on. Or they could record you and you can watch it. Just helping your brain storm. 

[Npoulson]

What is actually happening to make it easier to understand bc jt is a bit weird

im moving my eyes off the first target second shot before i shoot

my brain is telling me ive shot that second shot

but in that literal split second it happens after or something

its damn odd that it only happens on the first target 

and i agree slower then faster i started trying that today

[perttime]

What happens if you shoot just two shots on one target?

[Zachjet]

I’m going to follow along on this topic 

[Reds_Dot]

It's gonna sound like a beating a dead horse but get some video of this happening. If possible, have the camera facing you so we can see your head/eyes and hands while you shoot the transitions. 

 

I suspect what is happening is that your predictive shooting (shooting twice seeing one sight picture) is slower than you realize. Even in predictive shooting you don't shift your focus off the current target until the second shot is fired then you move your eyes/head.

 

If you're moving your eyes/head before the second shot happens your body will twist in the same direction Your head is going, even slightly. Thus you'll "drag" your second shot into the delta or even a mike. 

 

I would need to see video of a transition where that happens on paper but the video should be where I can see your face and arms at the same time. 

 

Good luck.

[Npoulson]

If i shoot just 2 shots its 2 alpha every time
For the second reply im seeing 2 sight pictures just not in the right time

this only happens on close stuff

and it isnt 100% of the time

ive trained some sort of super bad habit in over last few years

i will try to get some video my buddy is super into that and ill ask him to do it for me

[Supermoto]

Yeah, I have the same issue.  You are seeing the sights come back down for the second shot, but you are not seeing it lift because you are transitioning your eyes to the next target. As your eyes transition, you pull the gun off target

 

You aren't finishing the shot. When your eyes tells you to break the shot and when you actually do can be a big delay

 

There is no way I saw the dot lift on this second shot.

[Npoulson]

Thats awesome

i need video asap

[Boomstick303]

Like I said, its most likely your are moving your eyes when you pull the trigger versus waiting for the sight/dot to lift.  

 

Maybe a drill to work on this, is starting the Blake drill but end it on the first shot on the second target, to isolate the issue.  make yourself watch the dot lift before transitioning.  

 

[Npoulson]

Boomstick

been trying that as well

never happens

its the weirdest problem 

everything i have tried to isolate it results in like there never was a problem 

maybe eating 3 4 tenths is worth it

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, Npoulson said:

maybe eating 3 4 tenths is worth it

Much preferred to dropping 15 points

[Supermoto]

3 hours ago, Npoulson said:

Boomstick

been trying that as well

never happens

its the weirdest problem 

everything i have tried to isolate it results in like there never was a problem 

maybe eating 3 4 tenths is worth it

 

You don't have to eat any time.  It doesn't take any longer to just keep your focus on the target you are shooting.  It takes patience. 

[Npoulson]

Agreed chuck s

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, Supermoto said:

 

You don't have to eat any time.  It doesn't take any longer to just keep your focus on the target you are shooting.  It takes patience. 

We did an experiment during a practice session. We set up an 18 round stage with fairly close targets, some lateral movement but no real tight shots. I shot the stage pushing as fast as I could. No mikes, but the hits were sloppy. I recall a handful of D's, mostly C's and a few As'. Then, we said that we were going to repeat the stage but try to get the best points we could. My second run was 17 A and 1 C. But it did take longer. 0.01 seconds longer

The only difference was that I made sure I called the second shot.  Visual Patience at it's best!

[Boomstick303]

7 hours ago, Npoulson said:

maybe eating 3 4 tenths is worth it

 

I doubt its even that much time.  When I break drills down I am always amazed what 1-2 tenths makes when it comes to visual patience.  A big part of this game is understanding what visual confirmation to use for which target distance.  This is going to change over time as a shooter progresses as long as they are putting in the work and are conscious of it.  

 

Maybe play with cadence on these arrays and understand what that cadence is for that particular array.  

 

 

[shred]

Be sure you are looking at the target and not the dot.  It's extremely easy on this drill to focus on the dot instead of the targets and then hits go bad.

 

[BigHand]

I would look into the transition drills where you are transitioning based on the beep of the timer or the snap of the trigger. You deliberately pause a tenth of a second or so and snap the trigger, then pop the eyes to the next target. Obviously you'd want to always practice this from a draw if the 1st target is your only problem area. 

 

You can also do it with a beep, so you wait for the beep, then snap the trigger and do not look until you've clicked the trigger. Then pop the head, then transition. Just a thought. 

[pjb45]

I had a nice talk with Mike Seeklander about this issue with regards to me.

 

Mike said, " you trained yourself to miss"!  

I was pulling my eyes off the target about the same time I was pulling the trigger.  It became a habit that did not always show itself.

Solution

I set up multiple targets; open, hard cover, not shoot partials.

Then I repeated the dry fire routine making sure I did not move my eyes off the target while completing the firing sequence.  After a few hundred dry fire practices I rarely pull my eyes off the target.

 

You created habit that has to be broken and replaced.  For the IT folks it is like having a bad subroutine that gets randomly called and causes a failure.

 

More than a few trainers will tell you move your eyes then your gun after you complete the firing sequence. 

[Npoulson]

Been doing exactly this

it is working

thanks