Idpa carry optics questions.

[Twilk73]

I’ve been searching for both these questions and I’m either confused by different answers or just can’t comprehend the rule book well enough. 
 

First question easy one, do I need to have iron sights on my carry optics pistol?

 

Second question, can I use a plus one base pad so long as it fits in the box and doesn’t go over 1 or 1.5oz add on weight limit or whatever the rule is? 

Bonus question I bought a nice new gun with a Glock 34 size window cut in the slide, is that carry optics legal? It was milled into the slide so it’s not stock but it is the stock slide. 
 

I think I know the answers to one and bonus based on my searching but two has me pretty confused. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Twilk73

[Johnny_Chimpo]

57 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

I’ve been searching for both these questions and I’m either confused by different answers or just can’t comprehend the rule book well enough. 

You're not alone.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

First question easy one, do I need to have iron sights on my carry optics pistol?

The short answer is I think you do.  However, being a USPSA RO, I'll do what I would do when answering a USPSA rules question by quoting the appropriate rules.

 

Let's look first at modifications and prohibitions that apply to all divisions

Quote

8.1.6 Allowable Modifications for All Divisions

    8.1.6.1 Storage locks may be disabled or removed.

    8.1.6.2 Magazine disconnects may be disabled or removed.

    8.1.6.3 Lasers that are incorporated into the firearm or sights are allowed if they comply with all other division   rules and the laser is not activated during a string of fire (unless competing in Carry Optics or PCC). Tape may be used to prevent the laser from projecting.

 

8.1.7 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions

   8.1.7.1 The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the rulebook.

   8.1.7.2 Add-on weights that have no legal operational function other than providing weight.

   8.1.7.3 Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).

   8.1.7.4 Disconnecting or disabling of safety devices including (but not limited to): manual safeties, firing pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.

 

 

Let's look at the CO equipment appendix next.

Quote

A.7 Carry Optics Division

  A.7.1  Handguns permitted:

    A.7.1.1 Handguns, associated modifications, restrictions, holsters, magazine carriers, calibers, start condition, and division capacity shall be compliant with ESP Division requirements, except as it relates to sights, lasers and overall weight.

    A.7.1.2 Maximum weight including empty magazine will not exceed 45 ounces.

    A.7.1.3 Firearms used in this division must be equipped with an optical sight system in order to compete this division.

  A.7.2 Optics suitable for this division fall under two categories with different restrictions on how they are mounted to the firearm.

    A.7.2.1 Passive: These include Miniature Red Dot and Reflex sights suitable for concealed every day carry (EDC). They project or reflect a dot onto the optic. Passive Optics (MRDS) must be attached directly to upper between rear of upper and ejection port.

    A.7.2.2 Active: These are Red or Green LASER sights that project a dot onto the target. Active LASER sights are permitted to be mounted on the frame of the firearm. Typical locations can be the rail or the pistol grip.

 

Now we look at ESP allowed and prohibited modifications

Quote

A.2.3 ESP Permitted Modifications

   A.2.3.1 See Allowances and Restriction in 8.1.6 and 8.1.7 in the IDPA Rulebook

   A.2.3.2 Ported barrels.

   A.2.3.3 Compensator and Muzzle devices incorporated into the firearm. Screw on or removable attachments that are pinned on are not permitted.

   A.2.3.4 Aftermarket magazine base pads may be used provided they do not make the magazine weight more than 1.00 oz. over the same capacity factory magazine.

 A.2.4 ESP Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list)

    A.2.4.1 Trigger shoes.

 

At the end of all that I'm as confused as you are.  If you read A.2.3.1, it takes you to 8.1.6 (Allowable modifications for all Divisions).  Since 8.1.6 doesn't say that OEM sights can be removed, I would say the answer is you can't just run without iron sights in CO.  But this is IDPA so who the hell knows.

 

57 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

Second question, can I use a plus one base pad so long as it fits in the box and doesn’t go over 1 or 1.5oz add on weight limit or whatever the rule is?

Yes, see A.2.1.4 and A.2.3.4 from Appendix A.2 Enhanced Service Pistol.  Remember that CO is ESP with a dot or a laser.  Also keep in mind A.7.1.2: Maximum weight including empty magazine will not exceed 45 ounces.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Twilk73 said:

Bonus question I bought a nice new gun with a Glock 34 size window cut in the slide, is that carry optics legal? It was milled into the slide so it’s not stock but it is the stock slide. 
 

I think I know the answers to one and bonus based on my searching but two has me pretty confused. 

Strictly speaking, it's not legal because slide cuts or ports are not mentioned as allowed in either 8.1.6 not Appendix A.2 nor in Appendix A.7

 

The answers USED to be clear in the 2017 rulebook, which had a long list of ESP-approved modifications including slide cuts/ports and defined somewhat the allowed iron sight modifications.

 

These were from the 2017 rulebook

Quote

8.2.2.2 ESP Permitted Features and Modifications (Inclusive list):
A. Sights may be changed to another notch and post type. Slides may be machined to accept different style sights.

Z. Slide checkering, serrating, engraving, and other machining.

 

IDPA simply cannot understand how to craft a proper rulebook.  It's mind boggling.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Twilk73]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

You're not alone.

 

 

The short answer is I think you do.  However, being a USPSA RO, I'll do what I would do when answering a USPSA rules question by quoting the appropriate rules.

 

Let's look first at modifications and prohibitions that apply to all divisions

 

 

Let's look at the CO equipment appendix next.

 

Now we look at ESP allowed and prohibited modifications

 

At the end of all that I'm as confused as you are.  If you read A.2.3.1, it takes you to 8.1.6 (Allowable modifications for all Divisions).  Since 8.1.6 doesn't say that OEM sights can be removed, I would say the answer is you can't just run without iron sights in CO.  But this is IDPA so who the hell knows.

 

Yes, see A.2.1.4 and A.2.3.4 from Appendix A.2 Enhanced Service Pistol.  Remember that CO is ESP with a dot or a laser.  Also keep in mind A.7.1.2: Maximum weight including empty magazine will not exceed 45 ounces.

 

 

Strictly speaking, it's not legal because slide cuts or ports are not mentioned as allowed in either 8.1.6 not Appendix A.2 nor in Appendix A.7

 

The answers USED to be clear in the 2017 rulebook, which had a long list of ESP-approved modifications including slide cuts/ports and defined somewhat the allowed iron sight modifications.

 

These were from the 2017 rulebook

 

IDPA simply cannot understand how to craft a proper rulebook.  It's mind boggling.

Appreciate the feedback. The gun is a strike one salient tier 1 and id love to  have functioning back up sights anyway. However, the gun with an x300 is really bursting out of the box. Plus getting back up sights to work is proving to be a challenge in and of its self considering the way the sights are made. The rear is easy I’ll just have it dovetailed for a Glock sight then use Dawson for that. The front, I can’t even get the company to email me back on compatibility with other pistol companies to find something that works. 
 

Thank god the magazine base pad +1 isn’t an issue I already purchased three from Italy. The issue here was that the stock mag base plate has a huge over hang that snags on my shirt so I wanted something smoother. 
 

The slide was modified by salient in the tier 1 package meaning lightning cuts and a big window up top. 
 

If I can’t shoot it in idpa I’ll just use it for uspsa. I prefer idpa though. Thanks for the input. 
 

You would have thought I learned my lesson with the archon type b and parts availability and those challenges. I should have picked an easier gun to work with but I like the way this one shoots and looks lol. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Twilk73

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Twilk73 said:

Appreciate the feedback. The gun is a strike one salient tier 1 and id love to  have functioning back up sights anyway. However, the gun with an x300 is really bursting out of the box. Plus getting back up sights to work is proving to be a challenge in and of its self considering the way the sights are made. The rear is easy I’ll just have it dovetailed for a Glock sight then use Dawson for that. The front, I can’t even get the company to email me back on compatibility with other pistol companies to find something that works. 
 

Thank god the magazine base pad +1 isn’t an issue I already purchased three from Italy. The issue here was that the stock mag base plate has a huge over hang that snags on my shirt so I wanted something smoother. 
 

The slide was modified by salient in the tier 1 package meaning lightning cuts and a big window up top. 
 

If I can’t shoot it in idpa I’ll just use it for uspsa. I prefer idpa though. Thanks for the input. 
 

You would have thought I learned my lesson with the archon type b and parts availability and those challenges. I should have picked an easier gun to work with but I like the way this one shoots and looks lol. 

 

I don't even bother with co-witnessing iron sights on my carry pistols.

[Twilk73]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I don't even bother with co-witnessing iron sights on my carry pistols.

I do like back up sights but they are 1/5 Co witness so they’re barley there and they are blacked out.  They’re very much out of the way. This is the setup I’d like to achieve with the current gun. 

[deerslayer]

18 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Let's look first at modifications and prohibitions that apply to all divisions

 

 

 

 

Strictly speaking, it's not legal because slide cuts or ports are not mentioned as allowed in either 8.1.6 not Appendix A.2 nor in Appendix A.7

 

The answers USED to be clear in the 2017 rulebook, which had a long list of ESP-approved modifications including slide cuts/ports and defined somewhat the allowed iron sight modifications.

 

These were from the 2017 rulebook

 

IDPA simply cannot understand how to craft a proper rulebook.  It's mind boggling.

 

I think slide cuts are still allowed.  ESP permitted modifications used to include a laundry list of allowed modifications, similar to what is currently included in allowed CDP modifications (A.3.3.1 - A.3.3.32).  Slide machining was on this list.  Now, ESP mentions only comps, ported barrels, and aftermarket bas pads as allowed modifications.  

 

BUT in late 2021, IDPA came out with a proclamation that implied ESP would merely need to fit in the box and make weight and pretty much anything else goes.  This change was an attempt to address recent trends in the industry (tungsten infused frames, etc).  People quickly added tungsten guide rods to their ESP and CO guns.

 

This change was reflected in the 2022 rulebook's ESP list of permitted modifications, which merely said "see 8.1.6 and 8.1.7."  8.1.6 and 8.1.7 simply list a couple obviously illegal features, so it was clear that the authors didn't want an exclusive list of modifications for ESP (as compared to other divisions).  The 2023 book seems to follow this line of reasoning, but added new wording in the ESP allowed mods to account for the new comp/ports rules.

 

I wish they would let me write the 2024 book.  

Edited February 12, 2023 by deerslayer

[racer32]

I think everyone is making this more complicated than it is. CO is ESP with red dot added and has a 2oz bump to account for the weight.  ESP has been simplified to weight and fit in the box effectively.  The current rule books section on esp fits on a third of a page.  Notice the language for cone/bull barrels/ and the like has been removed. 

 

8.1.6 is there for global allowable mods. The mods for esp are by definition different than stock service pistol but both divisions allow you to remove trigger lock mechanisms. 

 

8.1.7 is there for global disallowed mods.  

 

Neither of these two sections address slide cuts nor are they intended to address esp specific allowances.

 

1*Does your strike one fit in the box?

2*Is it 43oz (esp, 45oz with optic attached for CO) and under? 

 

The slide cut in the strike one is good to go. 

 

Cool pistol, I almost bought one a couple of times. Felt really good in my hand.  Good luck and enjoy!

 

M

 

 

[deerslayer]

26 minutes ago, racer32 said:

I think everyone is making this more complicated than it is. CO is ESP with red dot added and has a 2oz bump to account for the weight.  ESP has been simplified to weight and fit in the box effectively.  The current rule books section on esp fits on a third of a page.  Notice the language for cone/bull barrels/ and the like has been removed. 

 

8.1.6 is there for global allowable mods. The mods for esp are by definition different than stock service pistol but both divisions allow you to remove trigger lock mechanisms. 

 

8.1.7 is there for global disallowed mods.  

 

Neither of these two sections address slide cuts nor are they intended to address esp specific allowances.

 

1*Does your strike one fit in the box?

2*Is it 43oz (esp, 45oz with optic attached for CO) and under? 

 

The slide cut in the strike one is good to go. 

 

Cool pistol, I almost bought one a couple of times. Felt really good in my hand.  Good luck and enjoy!

 

M

 

 

 

I fully agree, but a better book would not use a "here is what you can't do, anything else goes" method for one division and a "you can only do this" method for other divisions.  A newb who reads the rules for permitted mods and saves ESP for last will think, "Wow, ESP is really restrictive."

[Jim Watson]

I think you are fine with optic only, better off without the distraction of BUIS on a match gun.

A floor plate that fits The Box and does not add over an ounce is good to go.

A superfluous hole in the slide is nothing unusual these days and will not likely be remarked.

 

And finally, I doubt many SOs and MDs know what a Salient Strike One IS, not to mention having a catalog of options handy.  

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Jim Watson

[Johnny_Chimpo]

56 minutes ago, racer32 said:

I think everyone is making this more complicated than it is. CO is ESP with red dot added and has a 2oz bump to account for the weight.  ESP has been simplified to weight and fit in the box effectively.  The current rule books section on esp fits on a third of a page.  Notice the language for cone/bull barrels/ and the like has been removed. 

 

8.1.6 is there for global allowable mods. The mods for esp are by definition different than stock service pistol but both divisions allow you to remove trigger lock mechanisms. 

 

8.1.7 is there for global disallowed mods.  

 

Neither of these two sections address slide cuts nor are they intended to address esp specific allowances.

 

1*Does your strike one fit in the box?

2*Is it 43oz (esp, 45oz with optic attached for CO) and under? 

 

The slide cut in the strike one is good to go. 

 

Cool pistol, I almost bought one a couple of times. Felt really good in my hand.  Good luck and enjoy!

 

M

 

 

 

The IDPA rulebook is still a s#!tshow.  Every attempt at clarification just makes it worse.

 

Right now ESP is defined by tribal knowledge and facebook posts.  While I do agree with your interpretation of what ESP is, that is not what a literal reading of the rulebook says it is.

 

A few edits to the 2017 ESP rules would have achieved the same purpose with significantly better clarity.

 

Every time I think about renewing my membership, IDPA HQ does something that makes me change my mind

Edited February 12, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Scotty_JR]

44 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

I think you are fine with optic only, better off without the distraction of BUIS on a match gun.

A floor plate that fits The Box and does not add over an ounce is good to go.

A superfluous hole in the slide is nothing unusual these days and will not likely be remarked.

 

And finally, I doubt many SOs and MDs know what a Salient Strike One IS, not to mention having a catalog of options handy.  

 

 

This is the answer. I've run 3 years of major matches with no BUIS on my pistols. Its never been questioned. It used to be 1.5oz limit over the factory and that's been dropped to 1 oz. 

[Twilk73]

Awesome, you guys made my day. I tuned this gun today and it shoots like a dream. Steel guide rod with 12# recoil spring. I put my own secret sauce of trigger spring in it and the trigger comes in at 2 pounds 5 oz.
 

It’s off to get an optic cut this week and I’ll have them add a Glock dovetail as a just in case. 

[Twilk73]

15 hours ago, Scotty_JR said:

 

This is the answer. I've run 3 years of major matches with no BUIS on my pistols. Its never been questioned. It used to be 1.5oz limit over the factory and that's been dropped to 1 oz. 

The base pads I ordered are less than an ounce. The latest issue is the gun with an x300 is going to be real tight in the box. I have two solutions for that though one of them is going to work. 

[waktasz]

Iron sights on an optics gun? What are those?

[erwos]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:36 AM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The IDPA rulebook is still a s#!tshow.  Every attempt at clarification just makes it worse.

 

Right now ESP is defined by tribal knowledge and facebook posts.  While I do agree with your interpretation of what ESP is, that is not what a literal reading of the rulebook says it is.

You mean like how the CDP rules say I can run bull barrels at 4.25 and below, but there's no rule banning bull barrels in the first place? lol

[k80clay]

SIG 320 Legion has no rear irons when you put an optic on and you know anything SIG does is a-ok with IDPA so…..no, you don’t need irons. 

[RedDotsOnly]

I am new to IDPA - You're allowed to run tungsten guide rods now?

[waktasz]

No heavier than stainless steel

[ddc]

22 hours ago, waktasz said:

No heavier than stainless steel

 

I believe that limitation applies only to SSP and CDP.

For ESP and ESP derived divisions (CO) they are apparently ok now if I am reading the rulebook correctly.

[waktasz]

Interesting. I searched the rulebook and didn't realize the divisions were different when I found the rule. Strange that CUSTOM defensive pistol doesn't allow it. 

[Jim Watson]

Kind of like Single Stack.  At least there is one Division for traditional guns.

[ddc]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

Interesting. I searched the rulebook and didn't realize the divisions were different when I found the rule. Strange that CUSTOM defensive pistol doesn't allow it. 

 

I agree.  I can see it for SSP.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by ddc

[Duck_Duckalo]

On 7/18/2023 at 4:38 PM, ddc said:

 

I agree.  I can see it for SSP.

 

For SSP you can use other guide rods as long as they are not heavier than stainless steel.

[ddc]

10 hours ago, Duck_Duckalo said:

For SSP you can use other guide rods as long as they are not heavier than stainless steel.

 

Didn't we already say that?

[Duck_Duckalo]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:41 PM, ddc said:

 

Didn't we already say that?

Sure did...