A different approach to divisions

[matteekay]

(Disclaimer: This is purely hypothetical and only meant for conversation.)

 

Let me start off by saying that I appreciate USPSA trying to keep the divisions current by exploring rule changes. However, I think that the proposals (introducing another new division, making L10 into some inexplicable hybrid, and making Production even more like Limited than it already is) may actually cause more harm than good. If making similar-but-not-quite-the-same divisions is the approach we're taking, then why not look at simplifying rules and consolidating divisions outright?

 

Here's my (again, purely hypothetical) proposal:

 

• Optics Major: Major scoring, optics allowed, comps allowed, 171.25mm mags 
• Optics Minor: Minor scoring, optics allowed, comps disallowed, 140mm mags
• Irons Major: Major scoring, no optics or comps, 140mm mags, all Limited modifications legal
• Irons Minor: Minor scoring, otherwise the same as Irons Major
• Revolver + PCC: Unchanged from now (they're different enough that they should still be standalone divisions). One caveat is that you should be allowed to run a revolver in any of the other divisions it qualifies for.

 

So, what about our current LoCap divisions (Prod/L10/SS)? We could consider treating LoCap (10 or less rounds) as a category recognition rather than a division like we do Industry or Junior. Want to run a 1911 in .45 ACP? Great, Irons Major (LoCap). Or a dotted .357 revolver with a comp? Optics Major (LoCap). 

 

I'll admit the one part that gets a little squishy is awards. While there are technically fewer divisions here than we currently have (and certainly fewer than if Limited Optics becomes a thing), LoCap shooters wouldn't be fully represented unless the MD is willing to do a lot of duplicate plaques (1st A-Class, Optics Minor LoCap, etc). This is less of an issue for things like Nationals. You hold two separate matches: the regular match and a LoCap match, which effectively takes over SS/Prod/L10 Nats.

 

The other option is to stand up LoCap as full-blown divisions that mirror their HiCap counterparts. This would be better for Level II's and up but would probably be more difficult for local matches. The rules would still be easier to explain than the current divisions, though...

 

So, what did I miss? Is this better or worse than the direction we're going?

 

Anyway, back to mounting a dot on my L10 revolver...

[RJH]

All right, here's mine:

 

Open is open 

 

Lim optics. 141 mags, slide ride optic 

 

Limited is limited

 

Locap is no optics or comps 10 minor 8 major 

 

PCC is PCC 

 

The end, kinda....

 

 

In every division other than low cap, minor scoring only. Or score the crap major with 9 mm minor. USPSA needs to get to the ripping the Band-Aid off of the major/minor stuff in the high cap divisions. Less 40 ammo is sold every year than 45 ammo. By making 9 mm "the" standard, any theoretical advantages one gun has over another is basically tossed out of the window, as recoil is no longer an issue.  

 

If USPSA doesn't go ahead and get rid of 40 now, they're going to in 5 years because limited is going to be dead anyway. Will going to 9 save limited, I can't be positive. But as more and more gun companies kill off anything in 40, a full custom is going to be the only way to get one. That will put limited close the same cost front as open and people will probably just jump right on in to open. So if the correct thing to do in 5 years is to kill 40, and major in general, it's the correct thing now. 

 

 

The only reason there would be a minor / major option in low cap is that as it stands now single stack is the only division that there is not one power factor that really rules the roost. In every other division whether it's for a competitive advantage or mandated by the rules, there is one clear choice in shooting major or minor.

 

 

 

 

All of that is said as a guy who shoots major in limited when I shoot limited. I also shoot major in single stack when I shoot single stack. And I still prefer to shoot major, but we're going to be there eventually anyway, might as well make it now

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by RJH

[Kwontanamo]

Pretty interesting take and i'd also be interested on how the board views this. I would go ahead and add the limited round count to anyone shooting in the optic & iron minor divisions. Otherwise, I like this idea. Keeps it simple.

 

The only other thing i'd add is making magazine lengths for PCC to 171.25mm or a stock 33rd glock magazine. 

[matteekay]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

{snip}

 

I don't disagree, actually. I think that in the back of my mind, I'm always considering that the board will be slow to make a change if it excludes a bunch of existing setups. While Limited isn't the most popular division, .40 is easily the most popular setup within Limited, so I was trying to develop a rule set that encompasses what's already out there.

 

Again, not disagreeing with your points, though.

[Southpaw]

1. Open: no change

2. Limited: no change

3. Limited  Minor: new division 

4. Limited Optics: minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

5. Limited 8/10: 8 major, 10 minor capacity. No magwells for double stack guns.

6. Revolver: no change, or combine into Limited 8/10

7. PCC: no change 

 

Done, now we can stop messing with rules all the time. If Limited were to become very low participation due to everyone moving to Limited  Minor then can get rid of it down the road, but let members decide and will become clear after a few years if anyone still wants to shoot it. 

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

1. Open: no change

2. Limited: no change

3. Limited  Minor: new division 

4. Limited Optics: minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

5. Limited 8/10: 8 major, 10 minor capacity. No magwells for double stack guns.

6. Revolver: no change, or combine into Limited 8/10

7. PCC: no change 

 

Done, now we can stop messing with rules all the time. If Limited were to become very low participation due to everyone moving to Limited  Minor then can get rid of it down the road, but let members decide and will become clear after a few years if anyone still wants to shoot it. 

 

I don't hate this idea either. What i would hope is that if something like that happened there would be a percentage number and after a division dropped below that, they get rid of it. I don't know what that number is, and I'm a guy who shoots single stack quite a bit and know it would probably get chopped LOL

[matteekay]

27 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

1. Open: no change

2. Limited: no change

3. Limited  Minor: new division 

4. Limited Optics: minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

5. Limited 8/10: 8 major, 10 minor capacity. No magwells for double stack guns.

6. Revolver: no change, or combine into Limited 8/10

7. PCC: no change 

 

Done, now we can stop messing with rules all the time. If Limited were to become very low participation due to everyone moving to Limited  Minor then can get rid of it down the road, but let members decide and will become clear after a few years if anyone still wants to shoot it. 

 

So Open still has Major/Minor as a single division, and Limited splits into Major/Minor/Optics/LoCap? I could get behind that. I like the 8/10 division as a way to handle LoCap. I wouldn't even bother saying "no magwells" given how many factory guns include them nowadays (one of the many reasons the current Production rules don't really make sense).

[Southpaw]

25 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

So Open still has Major/Minor as a single division, and Limited splits into Major/Minor/Optics/LoCap? I could get behind that. I like the 8/10 division as a way to handle LoCap. I wouldn't even bother saying "no magwells" given how many factory guns include them nowadays (one of the many reasons the current Production rules don't really make sense).

 

Yup. Divisions based on types of guns that are actually popular, both for current members and general public, while not making guns current members own obsolete overnight, and no more divisions than are necessary.

 

No Open Minor for example as no one is asking for this, and who even owns a gun for that, besides some Steel Challenge shooters.

 

Guns that fit into Limited  Minor and Limited Optics are by far most popular types of guns sold.

 

Limited 8/10 would combine 3 (or 4) low participation divisions and create 1 that maybe gets decent amount of participation. Also creates spot for few dozen people that actually liked 10rd limit in Production . No magwell for double stack is so Single Stack guns aren't at disadvantage since they're being combined here. 

[crmcdm]

1. Open - As is
2. PCC - As is
3. Limited - As is
4. Production - Eliminate D4-9 (the 10-round restriction) Let the box fit determine capacity (it'll be 17 or 18, maybe 19 for some who push); eliminate the SAO prohibition inherent in Special Provision 1.  Get rid of the flashlight bulls#!t (allow it, allow frame weights if people want, etc.) Setting the weight at 59 Oz lets people shoot their Shadows or their Glock 34 with a little weight added if they feel recoil dampening is their biggest concern, or keep it lighter if they think transitions matter most to them - either way levels the field by giving shooters affordable choices. 1911/2011 - Welcome! 
5. CO (Change the name to Slide Optics if you don't believe people carry their optic-laden Shadow 2)- Otherwise - As is, except eliminate the SAO prohibition inherent in Special Provision 1.  1911/2011 - Welcome! 
6. Revolver - Whatever. Lump them with Production or let them be.

[pskys2]

Jeez, how about removing the caliber restriction for major, then if 40 dies ok (I've never considered any division being adjusted due to a specific caliber, it's supposed to be about what caliber best worked), and eliminate all Divisions and go back to everyone shooting heads up.  Been there, done that and it sure kept things simple.

[dwbethue]

5 hours ago, matteekay said:

(Disclaimer: This is purely hypothetical and only meant for conversation.)

 

Let me start off by saying that I appreciate USPSA trying to keep the divisions current by exploring rule changes. However, I think that the proposals (introducing another new division, making L10 into some inexplicable hybrid, and making Production even more like Limited than it already is) may actually cause more harm than good. If making similar-but-not-quite-the-same divisions is the approach we're taking, then why not look at simplifying rules and consolidating divisions outright?

 

Here's my (again, purely hypothetical) proposal:

 

• Optics Major: Major scoring, optics allowed, comps allowed, 171.25mm mags 
• Optics Minor: Minor scoring, optics allowed, comps disallowed, 140mm mags
• Irons Major: Major scoring, no optics or comps, 140mm mags, all Limited modifications legal
• Irons Minor: Minor scoring, otherwise the same as Irons Major
• Revolver + PCC: Unchanged from now (they're different enough that they should still be standalone divisions). One caveat is that you should be allowed to run a revolver in any of the other divisions it qualifies for.

 

So, what about our current LoCap divisions (Prod/L10/SS)? We could consider treating LoCap (10 or less rounds) as a category recognition rather than a division like we do Industry or Junior. Want to run a 1911 in .45 ACP? Great, Irons Major (LoCap). Or a dotted .357 revolver with a comp? Optics Major (LoCap). 

 

I'll admit the one part that gets a little squishy is awards. While there are technically fewer divisions here than we currently have (and certainly fewer than if Limited Optics becomes a thing), LoCap shooters wouldn't be fully represented unless the MD is willing to do a lot of duplicate plaques (1st A-Class, Optics Minor LoCap, etc). This is less of an issue for things like Nationals. You hold two separate matches: the regular match and a LoCap match, which effectively takes over SS/Prod/L10 Nats.

 

The other option is to stand up LoCap as full-blown divisions that mirror their HiCap counterparts. This would be better for Level II's and up but would probably be more difficult for local matches. The rules would still be easier to explain than the current divisions, though...

 

So, what did I miss? Is this better or worse than the direction we're going?

 

Anyway, back to mounting a dot on my L10 revolver...

What about adding a PCC category for people who shoot reciprocating red dots instead of receiver/frame mounted optics?

[deerslayer]

4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

1. Open: no change

2. Limited: no change

3. Limited  Minor: new division 

4. Limited Optics: minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

5. Limited 8/10: 8 major, 10 minor capacity. No magwells for double stack guns.

6. Revolver: no change, or combine into Limited 8/10

7. PCC: no change 

 

Done, now we can stop messing with rules all the time. If Limited were to become very low participation due to everyone moving to Limited  Minor then can get rid of it down the road, but let members decide and will become clear after a few years if anyone still wants to shoot it. 

 

This makes more sense than just about anything else I've seen proposed (from a fellow lefty). 

[Brooke]

How about just shooting the divisions we have. Screw all this crazy thinking that is one persons opinion. Rule changes will kill the sport. Hello IDPA.

[PA_USPSA]

There needs to be at least 1 division with a limited round count (i.e. 10 rounds) for those of us who shoot in restrictive states (i.e. New Jersey).  Preferably there would be at least 1 division with a 10 round limit and iron sights and 1 division with a 10 round limit and optic sights.  

[Joe4d]

4 hours ago, PA_USPSA said:

There needs to be at least 1 division with a limited round count (i.e. 10 rounds) for those of us who shoot in restrictive states (i.e. New Jersey).  Preferably there would be at least 1 division with a 10 round limit and iron sights and 1 division with a 10 round limit and optic sights.  

or make an all or nothing rule,, no grandfathered mags allowed. so if everyone cant get 10 rounders, then noone can use them. So in 10 round land everyone shoots heads up.
Also the MD's can pick and choose classifiers that are 10 round mag neutral, so folks have fair classifications when they travel. 

No need for seperate divisions