Grip pressure / driving the gun for double taps

[matteekay]

Question for all the better revolver shooters than me (hint: it's all of you)...

 

I've noticed my second shot breaks high when shooting double taps (usually half an inch or so outside of the down-zero on an IDPA target). Slowing down between shots is obviously one solution but not really conducive to action sports, so I'm wondering if I just need to drive the gun down between shots.

 

Do you all "force" the muzzle back down on your second shot? 

 

If so, do you practice that in dry fire?

 

Potentially relevant, but this is with a 4" Rhino (29oz) shooting .40 S&W or 10mm.

[Toolguy]

I just use a tight grip and hold still through the shot. Muscle tension (for me) brings the gun back to the starting point before I can pull the trigger again. I thought the whole point of the Rhino guns was to keep the muzzle down in the first place?

[gargoil66]

24 minutes ago, matteekay said:

Question for all the better revolver shooters than me (hint: it's all of you)...

 

I've noticed my second shot breaks high when shooting double taps (usually half an inch or so outside of the down-zero on an IDPA target). Slowing down between shots is obviously one solution but not really conducive to action sports, so I'm wondering if I just need to drive the gun down between shots.

 

Do you all "force" the muzzle back down on your second shot? 

 

If so, do you practice that in dry fire?

 

Potentially relevant, but this is with a 4" Rhino (29oz) shooting .40 S&W or 10mm.

Matt:

 

I would not advise driving the barrel down between shots.  Reason is simple.  Eventually you will develop a more efficient grip and stance and will start putting shots out the bottom.  Also, you will have to train yourself on deliberately holding low.  I think it will take you longer to get a sight picture holding low than spending a bit more time between shots so your barrel can get back into the middle.  Or at least break the shot higher.

 

The solution, for me, would be developing a stronger grip, more effective stance (if needed), and a smooth but very aggressive trigger pull.  Can't say the trigger pull part will be easy but the grip and stance may be all you need.

 

Thats what I would do for me though.

 

GG

[pskys2]

Hoping MWP will chime in and refute most of what I'm about to say, maybe I can learn a little more even!

 

1st the need for a true double tap, 2 shots with one sight picture, is limited to under 10 yards, depending on skill.  You should still see the sight and call the shot, but it's done after.

The next level is the hammer, think I got that right, where you take the 1st shot and "see" the sight picture and take the shot with no adjustment.  That can be out quite a ways, again depending on skill.  The big difference is you can adjust the sight picture if needed, or if possible take a make up shot immediately.  We Revolver guys rarely have that luxury but if you watch the top dogs in the high cap divisions you will see them take a triple tap/hammer because they didn't see what they needed.

 

Don't try to drive the gun down, you will develop a bad habit of the gun dipping.  Focus on a good firm strong hand grip (but no death grip), the actual recoil management of the strong hand comes from the wrist/elbow/shoulder tension.  The weak hand is where you need as close to an iron hand grip that you can do.  If you practice these at varying ranges it will become 2nd nature.  And the more skill you develop from experience you will be able to enhance your technique.

 

The trick is to condition yourself to take the shot with no hesitation, with what the front sight (or dot) tells you is acceptable.  In ICORE you can't outrun points down, in USPSA you can (but it's best to not as it leads to sloppy shooting and will bite you under stress such as at big matches).  

 

Remember though to keep that trigger finger loose, or short strokes will follow.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by pskys2

[testosterone]

I want to hear what mwp and alaskan454 have to say as they are easily the fastest revolver trigger pullers, though like mwp says, speed isn't everything which is true but its easy to say when you are the fastest.  Ive never pried on either of them about this.

 

I have tried 100's of variations and all i can say for my part is, the enos description commonly finds a good result, if you have a firm neutral grip the gun will return faster than you can pull the trigger.  Assuming you have a reasonable grip on the gun it will return from recoil very fast... if your 2nd shot is high you are simply not looking the gun back to where the 2nd shot needs to go, it requires almost no effort and is basically an intention that points the gun to the right spot...

I suck though, so there is that.

[MWP]

It’s black magic. 

[gargoil66]

14 hours ago, testosterone said:

I want to hear what mwp and alaskan454 have to say as they are easily the fastest revolver trigger pullers, though like mwp says, speed isn't everything which is true but its easy to say when you are the fastest.  Ive never pried on either of them about this.

 

I have tried 100's of variations and all i can say for my part is, the enos description commonly finds a good result, if you have a firm neutral grip the gun will return faster than you can pull the trigger.  Assuming you have a reasonable grip on the gun it will return from recoil very fast... if your 2nd shot is high you are simply not looking the gun back to where the 2nd shot needs to go, it requires almost no effort and is basically an intention that points the gun to the right spot...

I suck though, so there is that.

TT:

 

If it works, why do you suck at it?  

 

Just 'axting'. 

 

GG

[matteekay]

11 hours ago, MWP said:

It’s black magic. 

 

I knew it. Brb, finding some live chickens to sacrifice.

 

(MWP actually gave me a few ideas to try. I'll report back once I've had the chance to get to the range)

[testosterone]

34 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

 

If it works, why do you suck at it?  

 

 

I have been thinking alot about this for months.

Knowing the skill and doing the skill are not the same thing.  There is alot of jibberish and physical skill development stuff that many books have been written about, but its basically why anyone excels at some skill and others just don't quite get make it happen.

 

I know it works, because when I do it right, that intangible sense of everything "just happening" and the result on timer+paper are objectively excellent.... then not being able to reproduce it on demand(this is not  problem with the technique, its doing it on demand) is why I suck at it.  

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by testosterone

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

I have been thinking alot about this for months.

Knowing the skill and doing the skill are not the same thing.  There is alot of jibberish and physical skill development stuff that many books have been written about, but its basically why anyone excels at some skill and others just don't quite get make it happen.

 

I know it works, because when I do it right, that intangible sense of everything "just happening" and the result on timer+paper are objectively excellent.... then not being able to reproduce it on demand(this is not  problem with the technique, its doing it on demand) is why I suck at it.  

 

 

TT:

 

Roger.  I have a MS in Sport Psych and used performance enhancement techniques in my work for a number of years.  The techniques do work.  I witnessed it over and over again with a pretty large number of shooters.  I viewed PE skills as a part of becoming better and more confident so integrated them into my training.  

 

Using a (proven) psychological technique to put yourself into your ideal optimal performance zone 'on demand' is something every Sport Psych guy strives for with their athletes.  The really top athletes can normally get themselves into a zone of performance that allows them to be competitive at their level but being perfect on demand is a moving target.

 

Excelling at a skill?  A dude who is super obese probably won't win a marathon any time soon.  However he has the capability to do so.  Just has to want to excel more than he wants to eat. 

 

A lot of guys read way too much into overcoming a obstacle to progress.  Much of the time they dwell on the why's and how's at the expense of focusing their attention on doing.

 

Overcoming obstacles?  With me, setting a (realistic) goal I can visualize intensely, centering (clearing the mind and relaxation techniques), and mental rehearsals using imagery are very successful techniques.  I think if you can really visualize your goal -- make a super strong film of you doing it in your mind -- your body will try to follow when asked.  May not be perfect but eventually it will be perfect.

 

Then you can keep going until you hit the next road block.  He, he.

 

Some guys have a real easy time at some sports, others don't.  Generally it is the ones who don't that end up being the best because they get used to overcoming obstacles.  Guys who think themselves naturals hit a road block and tend to have a real hard time dealing with it.

 

Just my opinion.  

 

GG

 

 

[MWP]

I talked to Matt a little bit about this and recommended he try different grip pressures and pay attention to how the gun moves. It’s tough to see that with just 2 rounds when you’re just starting to look for it, but shooting more like 6 would be a better chance to see sight movement and consistency during recoil.
 

I also recommended trying it with way more grip pressure than everyone in the sport recommends. 

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, MWP said:

I talked to Matt a little bit about this and recommended he try different grip pressures and pay attention to how the gun moves. It’s tough to see that with just 2 rounds when you’re just starting to look for it, but shooting more like 6 would be a better chance to see sight movement and consistency during recoil.
 

I also recommended trying it with way more grip pressure than everyone in the sport recommends. 

 

True story!

 

I took MWP's advice and threw several cylinders downrange while just watching the sights. It turns out, my "new" grip (with my left thumb flagged high behind the recoil shield) feels better, but is actually way less consistent and controllable than my old grip (traditional thumbs-over). After a while, I moved over to paper and the groups were a noticeable improvement. I've got two matches to burn this grip back into my brain before a big match in Florida at the end of the week so here's hoping.

 

Thanks for the help, Michael!

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

True story!

 

I took MWP's advice and threw several cylinders downrange while just watching the sights. It turns out, my "new" grip (with my left thumb flagged high behind the recoil shield) feels better, but is actually way less consistent and controllable than my old grip (traditional thumbs-over). After a while, I moved over to paper and the groups were a noticeable improvement. I've got two matches to burn this grip back into my brain before a big match in Florida at the end of the week so here's hoping.

 

Thanks for the help, Michael!

Amazing the things a national champion knows.

[Toolguy]

Thanks for sharing, MP.

[testosterone]

4 hours ago, MWP said:

I also recommended trying it with way more grip pressure than everyone in the sport recommends. 

 

I get this, the thing is anything I do works OK for awhile then falls apart, if I am not consciously in the grip then what happens down range is poor.

 

Squeezing very hard does work though, this is undeniable.  

 

 

 

 

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Amazing the things a national champion knows.

 

Super-weird, right?

[gargoil66]

21 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

I get this, the thing is anything I do works OK for awhile then falls apart, if I am not consciously in the grip then what happens down range is poor.

 

Squeezing very hard does work though, this is undeniable.  

 

 

 

 

Matt:

 

Squeezing very hard should work.  You are holding the revolver harder.  

 

Falling apart as you go farther into a competition?  

 

If you are not taking in some energy between stages, you will probably see your performance drop as the match goes along.  Energy gummies, bars, drinks.  As of late I have been consuming Pro Bar Boltz and Pro Bar 'Meals' between stages while taking in some sort of sport drink and of course -- coffee.   Snickers bars, Fig Newtons, GU are some other things I bring if I get sick of the Pro Bar stuff.  Keeping your energy level up means better physical performance and as importantly, clear thinking.  

 

The other half is attentional focus and inputting what you want in your mind as you compete.  This isn't hard to do but if you ignore it during training, you won't get much out of it at a match.  Basic steps are relaxation to clear the mind, inputting a picture or film of the task you want to accomplish done perfectly, and self talk to enforce those things in your mind.  Having a cue word you can use to cue yourself back into focus during the event is a good thing too.  When you know you are slipping, use the cue word to bring your mind and body back to its ideal 'arousal' level so you can perform at your best.  If you know your grip is slipping, cue word and get it back again.

 

Yes, I know conventional wisdom says that we all should strive to do everything automatically and without conscious thought.  Sorry, that's not how it works most of the time.  If I realize my grip is failing, I cue myself back into consciously gripping it harder.  Am I shifting focus from the end state of fast and accurate shots to grip?  Sure am but once I get the grip fixed I can shift back to fast and accurate shots.  

 

These things work but require practice.  Using them during training will probably improve the training and my bet is they will improve performance in competition.

 

GG

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by gargoil66

[testosterone]

19 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Matt:

 

Squeezing very hard should work.  You are holding the revolver harder.  

 

Falling apart as you go farther into a competition?  

 

 

 

nah, its more of a micro thing than a macro thing, like even within a 12 round drill, something that's over in 6 seconds.   So sure, its an across a long time manifestation, but thats not really the problem just a symptom.

 

 

[gargoil66]

3 hours ago, testosterone said:

 

nah, its more of a micro thing than a macro thing, like even within a 12 round drill, something that's over in 6 seconds.   So sure, its an across a long time manifestation, but thats not really the problem just a symptom.

 

 

TT:

 

Going from a strong to weak grip in six seconds?  I don't think I would be able to notice it in that short amount of time.  I notice it over stages and have to cue myself to get a solid grip and lock in the position as I am drawing.  Yes, it is conscious but it fixes the problem before I shoot.  Would rather suck up a hundredth of a second doing a mental check of my grip and fixing it if needed than blowing a string.  

 

You know the problem and if so, you probably know what you need to do to fix it.  Am sure you will, too.  Hope you solve it quickly!

 

GG

[MikeBurgess]

I made a lot of progress and changed my grip after a few rage sessions shooting Bens doubles drill at 5 to 7 yards. Take a bucket of ammo the the range set up a target and start railing doubles, do a few clips then change your grip or change your finger position on the trigger and run some more clips and see if its better or worse keep changing stuff till you find what works best for you. I had a hard time with this drill because it seemed like a lot of ammo to spend on targets that were easy to hit, but the payoff was actually worth it for me.

 

What I found for me (likely you will be different) when shooting fast splits at closer ranges I found my accuracy was better with a lower grip than what I had been using. 

 

[Carmoney]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:54 AM, MWP said:

I also recommended trying it with way more grip pressure than everyone in the sport recommends. 

 

This right here, people!  Hang on high and hard.  

 

(When I shot pins, people used to comment about how I was gripping so hard that it caused the gun to tremor during my sight pictures.)  

 

 

[MWP]

15 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

This right here, people!  Hang on high and hard.  

 

(When I shot pins, people used to comment about how I was gripping so hard that it caused the gun to tremor during my sight pictures.)  

 

 

Same. I shake the gun. I’ve broken some grips, and I can’t shoot a gun with a spur on it. 

[MikeyScuba]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:44 PM, gargoil66 said:

coffee.   Snickers bars, Fig Newtons, GU are some other things I bring if I get sick of the Pro Bar stuff.  Keeping your energy level up means better physical performance and as importantly, clear thinking.  

 

 

 

Personally I take fruit to a match.  usually mangos, raspberries and wild blueberries if in season.  Trail mix would work too.  Processed sugars, especially  HFCS are just horrible.

 

I also tried a matcha powder in some milk until my wife found out the caffeine levels in the stuff are sky high.  Which would explain the rabid squirrel feelings I was having (i tend to overdo things so I was probably in the 200-300mg levels of caffeine if not more) . I'll stick to my usual concoction which has vision benefits to boot.

[robertson]

17 hours ago, Carmoney said:

 

This right here, people!  Hang on high and hard.  

 

 

 

 

Poetry!

[gargoil66]

4 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

Personally I take fruit to a match.  usually mangos, raspberries and wild blueberries if in season.  Trail mix would work too.  Processed sugars, especially  HFCS are just horrible.

 

I also tried a matcha powder in some milk until my wife found out the caffeine levels in the stuff are sky high.  Which would explain the rabid squirrel feelings I was having (i tend to overdo things so I was probably in the 200-300mg levels of caffeine if not more) . I'll stick to my usual concoction which has vision benefits to boot.

 Mike:

 

Would do the same but fruit gets messy, especially in the summer.

 

Mango's.  No way.  Would be hitting the latrine every ten minutes.

 

When in the Canal Zone we had a big mango tree in front of the Company.  The mango's would get ripe and start to ferment and the birds would get drunk eating them.  We would be standing in formation and a bird would drop out of the tree, crash and burn, run amok and then take off again only to crash into the ground again.   Was really weird to watch but also entertaining.  Needless to say, it was not smart to walk under that tree when the mango were ripe.  Big time laxative.

 

Bottom line for me is to maintain the same energy level throughout the match and for the drive home.  I do not crash after consuming that stuff.  Don't feel groggy.  When it wears off I just feel less excited.  

 

GG