Optics for Revolver Class

[mikeAZ]

I put this post up in another area of the Forum.. See what you think?

 

 

About the Revolver optics buzz... Why not just leave the iron sight/optic sight issue die, BECAUSE if the optic sight IS superior?.. We will all buy one anyhow. There aren't that many revolver shooters anyway... IF you "beat" me using iron sights and I'm shooting optics?. Your just a better shooter. LEAVE Revolver, revolver WITH any choice of sight system. 

[Bill Sahlberg]

The smallest division is revolver, why divide it to make 2 smaller ones?

Edited January 1, 2023 by Bill Sahlberg
Added info

[pskys2]

Mike are you saying leave revolver as is or remove the sight restrictions?

[mikeAZ]

Combine "Revolver"  The choice is yours....Iron OR Optic. As I said , IF we think one better we will try it.

[blackss06]

If I were king for the day I’d allow optics in revolver division as it is. The participation is nearly nonexistent (5 or less at 5 area matches this year) so all it could do is help at this point. Optics are king according to participation numbers. 

[Toolguy]

That's probably the best way to go. Then it wouldn't change any other division, and all the revos would be on an even playing field in terms of ammo capacity. The most you'll have is 8. Nobody has a big stick cylinder.

[AzShooter]

Why not allow optics?  Many times my scores were better with iron sights exept on Far And Near Standards.

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

This is pretty interesting for me.  I was in the Army when the transition to dot sights and various types of magnified optics pushed iron sights into a 'Back Up' position.  Same arguments for and against and some guys hated the dot sights so much they stuck with the irons.  

 

The DCM went to optics for the 'Service Rifle' and from what I gather, are combined with irons for matches.  You won't see any serious competitor using irons unless they are in an iron sight only category and from what I know, none exists.  

 

Same will happen if dot sights are allowed on revolvers.  Irons will be gone from most revolvers overnight. 

 

What will happen with the revolver category if optics are allowed?  Probably get more shooters but I doubt it will be earth shattering.  

 

Just my view.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

What will happen with the revolver category if optics are allowed?  Probably get more shooters but I doubt it will be earth shattering. 

 

I don't think so. Drive-by participation in divisions ("hmm, maybe I'll shoot X this weekend") depends on people having suitable guns for it just lying around. Although I believe 8rd guns are the right choice for the USPSA Revolver rules, already we're talking guns almost nobody has sitting in the safe compared to 6rd revolvers. Add a dot to the required equipment list (and in competition, allowing a dot is essentially requiring a dot), and it gets even harder for people who aren't already dedicated participants to give it a try.

[MWP]

2 hours ago, gargoil66 said:What will happen with the revolver category if optics are allowed?  Probably get more shooters but I doubt it will be earth shattering.  

You won’t gain a single new shooter. Just like uspsa won’t gain anyone by allowing optics in L10, or flashlights in every division.
 

What will happen is everyone who is already shooting it, who is serious about revolver already, will have to spend 300-600$ to top every revolver they own to stay competitive. 
 

We’ve hashed this out plenty of times on this forum before, once last week even. Optics are a 5-10% advantage at the top of the game, and that advantage grows as the classes go down. 
 

It’s already hard enough to convince someone to spend 1k-1400 on a gun, another 1k on action, irons and grips, then several hundred on a belt and moons- then tell them their production ammo isn’t going to work. Don’t add the headache of optics. 

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, blackss06 said:

If I were king for the day I’d allow optics in revolver division as it is. The participation is nearly nonexistent (5 or less at 5 area matches this year) so all it could do is help at this point. Optics are king according to participation numbers. 

Carry optic did not take off until they went high capacity.  

So it seems high capacity and optics is king.  Co being cheaper has made it a very shiny new toy.  Lo might be fun but will still cost similar to open if a 2011 type is used.

I love the revolver division and no changes, or lack of, will matter.  But I do miss competing with my 1911/2011 guns.

The only 2 divisions I don't have dedicated guns for are open and pcc.

Might even drive by some Co, limited or s s this month.

Edited January 2, 2023 by pskys2

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Carry optic did not take off until they went high capacity.  

So it seems high capacity and optics is king.  Co being cheaper has made it a very shiny new toy.  Lo might be fun but will still cost similar to open if a 2011 type is used.

I love the revolver division and no changes, or lack of, will matter.  But I do miss competing with my 1911/2011 guns.

The only 2 divisions I don't have dedicated guns for are open and pcc.

Might even drive by some Co, limited or s s this month.

PK2:

 

High cap and optics are king because they are more effective than low cap and irons.  Competitive sports are games and if someone wants to be competitive, the gear he uses needs to be competitive.  Sure, superior skill will compensate to an extent but eventually will lose out to guys of the same superior skill with more efficient gear.

 

Me personally -- I don't really care.  If the rules call for irons, I will use irons.  If the rules allow both dots and irons, I will use a dot sight.  Have no dog in the fight and am just commenting on seeing this sort of thing before and liken it to the evolutionary process.

 

GG

 

[gargoil66]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I don't think so. Drive-by participation in divisions ("hmm, maybe I'll shoot X this weekend") depends on people having suitable guns for it just lying around. Although I believe 8rd guns are the right choice for the USPSA Revolver rules, already we're talking guns almost nobody has sitting in the safe compared to 6rd revolvers. Add a dot to the required equipment list (and in competition, allowing a dot is essentially requiring a dot), and it gets even harder for people who aren't already dedicated participants to give it a try.

FB:

 

Although I certainly agree about eight round revolvers vs 6 round revolvers is a deciding factor, I don't think dot sights are.  Guys are far more used to dot sights today than twenty years ago and most view irons as being obsolete.  They probably look at a revolver with a dot sight as an anachronism, and irons or dot sights, revolvers are something they just aren't interested in for competitive purposes.

 

GG

 

 

[SIGcurious]

3 hours ago, MWP said:

It’s already hard enough to convince someone to spend 1k-1400 on a gun, another 1k on action, irons and grips, then several hundred on a belt and moons- then tell them their production ammo isn’t going to work. Don’t add the headache of optics. 

 

Boy ain't this the truth.  As a new revolver shooter just trying to put things together, I fret just thinking about optics.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by SIGcurious

[Kjrobbins24]

Any thoughts on running revolver like open? Do whatever you want to it (dots, lights, etc…) and just have 1 unified revolver class that allows for any modifications. If you wanna run irons cool, if you want to throw a dot on, go for it.

 

I understand there may be some that have revolvers more able to perform better with more enhancements; however, as one user mentioned before me: revolver is the smallest division by far. Might see some more numbers if there weren’t any restrictions on modifications

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, MWP said:

You won’t gain a single new shooter. 

 

The end.

 

Revolver is easily the most gigantic pain in the ass division to get started in, open is a distant second, but i can buy, right now, a complete fully functioning open rig and even major pf ammo, all over the counter and have a 100% competitive setup. 

 

You cant even buy an 8 shot revolver except by luck.  Then, unless you are particularly inclined, you wont know one of the three gunsmiths that can make it not suck and then you wont be able to get enough primers to shoot the thing unless you are well connected.

 

 

[gargoil66]

3 hours ago, MWP said:

You won’t gain a single new shooter. Just like uspsa won’t gain anyone by allowing optics in L10, or flashlights in every division.
 

What will happen is everyone who is already shooting it, who is serious about revolver already, will have to spend 300-600$ to top every revolver they own to stay competitive. 
 

We’ve hashed this out plenty of times on this forum before, once last week even. Optics are a 5-10% advantage at the top of the game, and that advantage grows as the classes go down. 
 

It’s already hard enough to convince someone to spend 1k-1400 on a gun, another 1k on action, irons and grips, then several hundred on a belt and moons- then tell them their production ammo isn’t going to work. Don’t add the headache of optics. 

MP:

 

My experience has been that competitive shooters who are serious about their sport will spend the money on a sight, trigger, barrel, and anything that they think will give them a higher score.  Take a look at the cost of a top end optic for Service Rifle.  $3k to $4K.  I think a guy can buy a 627 with eight shot capability, a belt, holster, moon clips and dot sight.  May even be able to throw in a TK trigger / hammer with it and still be less.  Only point I am making is that competitive shooters will drop the money if they believe it will bring them greater success.    

 

Your comment about factory loads and competitive revolvers is spot on but I doubt many pistol shooters know that once you chuck a after market speed trigger and hammer plus springs into your revolver that you are pretty much restricted to handloading with Fed 100's.  I was pretty surprised at the number of pistol shooters who didn't know that.  Doesn't do any good if someone is trying to convince someone to get into the revolver side. 

 

GG

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, gargoil66 said:

PK2:

 

High cap and optics are king because they are more effective than low cap and irons.  Competitive sports are games and if someone wants to be competitive, the gear he uses needs to be competitive.  Sure, superior skill will compensate to an extent but eventually will lose out to guys of the same superior skill with more efficient gear.

 

Me personally -- I don't really care.  If the rules call for irons, I will use irons.  If the rules allow both dots and irons, I will use a dot sight.  Have no dog in the fight and am just commenting on seeing this sort of thing before and liken it to the evolutionary process.

 

GG

 

Understood ipsc was supposed to be a test bed for the most efficient martial arms.  One of the byproducts that led to issues is when they better mousetrap goes against conventional wisdom.

[GOF]

If revolver is such a miniscule division, why not let them shoot a wheelgun with any bells & whistles they want? Who's it gonna hurt? And if wheelgunners have fun with it, what's wrong with that?

[mikeAZ]

25 minutes ago, GOF said:

If revolver is such a miniscule division, why not let them shoot a wheelgun with any bells & whistles they want? Who's it gonna hurt? And if wheelgunners have fun with it, what's wrong with that?

Yes, what's the big deal??... Could be 5 or 6 of us at a match....

[gargoil66]

4 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Understood ipsc was supposed to be a test bed for the most efficient martial arms.  One of the byproducts that led to issues is when they better mousetrap goes against conventional wisdom.

PK:

 

Roger, but the term 'conventional wisdom' is also a moving target.  Dot sights went big time against conventional wisdom. 

 

Competitive shooting is a test bed for technology.  The motivation is being the best and the shooters will come up with gear and strategies that are intended to give them an edge.  If a piece of gear fails to bring results, it is discarded.  If it stays around, we can bet it not only gives an edge but is dependable. 

 

I don't view the use of dot sights with revolvers as the last gasp of a dying sport.   I view them as a tool that allows the shooter to perform better.

 

GG

 

 

 

[testosterone]

3 hours ago, GOF said:

If revolver is such a miniscule division, why not let them shoot a wheelgun with any bells & whistles they want? Who's it gonna hurt? And if wheelgunners have fun with it, what's wrong with that?

 

Years ago sometime around when co was a provisional division, Mike Carmony made the argument here that the divisions should be rationalized into optics/metal sights.

We are seeing this playout right now and the chaos that half measures created.

CO/production could have been the model for that.

 

Anyways, like mwp said, if the goal is more shooters then its a lol, if the goal is to have more national titles at stake then i guess sure?

 

[NoSteel]

Several years ago (2017) I shot a few Steel Challenge matches,  revolver optics.  At that time I thought it would be cool to be able to leave the optic on and shoot USPSA open.  Because I was already set up with an open gun never got around to trying it but did set up a poll to see if others had the same interest.  I would say 5yrs later the data is probably still relevant,  maybe 50% would try it which we all know if that 50% are current Revo shooters,  it’s a damn small number or participants….

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by NoSteel

[MWP]

Let’s talk about this like icore divisions. Currently icore has “limited”, which is the exact same as the uspsa revolver division. Anything goes, no comp no dot. Then we have icore “open”- same thing, but comp and dot allowed. Let’s not get into the argument of comps/ports/holes working or not working, let’s just talk about the dot. 
 

No one, zero people, shoot irons or “limited” signed up in open. Not because they can’t, because it’s a handicap. This includes shooters who aren’t trying to win the match. 
 

This happens to be the same as steel challenge and uspsa and ipsc and bowling pins (apparently except people on this forum.) No one is shooting irons in a division that allows optics unless they don’t understand the clear advantage they’re giving up, or signed up in the wrong division, or showed up to a match without knowing it was “run what you brung.” 
 

“You can” shoot irons in open, is the same as saying “you can” shoot your 625 in uspsa. The only people who are  are either hard headed, don't care enough to buy a new gun, or quit shooting revolver seriously and we lost them. 
 

Don’t get me wrong and think that I’m saying the divisions should be the same and never change or evolve. Single stack open guns aren’t relative today, because the sport evolved past that. Just like 6 shot revolvers-Smith didn’t even make a gun that out of the box everyone wasn’t changing drastically. Revolver shooters out west are hurrying to build 625s again with barrels that the factory hasn’t built in 20+ years because we found a fun way to bring 625s back to life. 
 

We are gaining 0 shooters in uspsa because we allow flashlights or magwells or magazine limits are to the moon. 
 

For the hundredth time, and this goes for uspsa, sc, icore and any other competition shooting sport- We need to stop trying to gain interest by changing or adding or twisting or tweaking divisions. We need to show people it’s fun, put on great events and reward the shooters at the top. 

[J_Allen]

1 hour ago, MWP said:

Revolver shooters out west are hurrying to build 625s again with barrels that the factory hasn’t built in 20+ years because we found a fun way to bring 625s back to life. 

Just curious because I think I may have missed this - what division is making 625s relevant again? Is this in ICORE?

 

Thanks,

 

Jason