Let's talk Sao carry ops

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

right, they should go behind what the whiners are crying about (adding SAO so they can have a competitive advantage in an existing division) and simply create a new division with SAO, minor/major, and frame mount optics.

 

I think we already proved that less restriction is better when creating a new division.

 

Wrong whiners, they need to go behind the whiners that are whining about adding a gun that adds no competitive advantage to carry ops and just let saos in. Don't try to act like you're not whining, there's whineers whining on both sides of this argument

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Wrong whiners, they need to go behind the whiners that are whining about adding a gun that adds no competitive advantage to carry ops and just let saos in. Don't try to act like you're not whining, there's whineers whining on both sides of this argument

 

I'm not sure if saying you like something as it is really counts as whining.  

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm not sure if saying you like something as it is really counts as whining.  

 

I don't think so either, I was just putting it in moto speak for moto

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I don't think so either, I was just putting it in moto speak for moto

 

Moto does like to call people whiners and wusses. Or some variation of that. 

[Boomstick303]

19 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Moto does like to call people whiners and wusses

 

He is not the only one.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

It Doesn’t have to be a public poll. 
but a qualified tech department maybe made up of long term competitors and sponsors or just people with vision.
In order  to get all aspects of possible impacts to the sport. 
every racing body does this.

 

 

[BritinUSA]

USPSA did not implement Production Optics which is what I and a few others were promoting. Instead they went with Carry Optics as a provisional division and then proceeded to make change after change to the ruleset.

 

IPSC has implemented Production Optics, essentially the same rules as Production but with a dot. From all accounts it is growing fast. It offers a clear difference from Open, whereas CO is essentially Open-Minor or welfare-open as some people call it.

 

I know I'm in the minority in this country; When the rest of the world sees growth in Production Optics with a tight rule-set (and 15 round capacity) then it does beg the question if USPSA is on the wrong path with its divisions.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

This also avoids a lot of nonsensical rule changes that appear to make no sense.

but it’s so important to for the board to have a vision and be consistent in these decisions. 
and knowing if they see CO as a race division would help people understand the direction of the class or sport. 
 

 

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

then it does beg the question if USPSA is on the wrong path with its divisions.

 

In what way?   You have a bunch of legacy Iron sight divisions dying a slow death with the expectation of maybe Limited.  One could argue, USPSA and other sports are not doing enough to keep up with advancement in Firearms.

 

My opinion is CO should not been based on Production rules at all.  From the explosion of CO once the mag capacity was changed indicates USPSA tapped into something.  Unintentionally or not.  

 

What if USPSA created CO based on Open and not Production?   Would that have been the incorrect path?  My opinion is no, if you look at how it blew up once mag capacity was based on 141 mm mags.  What if we allowed magwells and 141 mm mags from the start?    Would the growth been quicker?  One could argue yes.  

 

Why are we basing any division on any other division moving forward?   Short sighted in my eyes.  Is the goal to attract more people to participate in USPSA with the guns they already own, or to "Save" certain divisions and/or have some BS competitive equality between divisions? 

 

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA did not implement Production Optics which is what I and a few others were promoting. Instead they went with Carry Optics as a provisional division and then proceeded to make change after change to the ruleset.

 

 

I kind of forgot about that, how CO had a 35 oz limit to start and that kind of came out of left field. People joked it was because Sig had just released the 320 and Phil was President. Then we bumped the weight limit to 45 oz and the guns people used suddenly started to shift and money was spent. Then we bumped it to 59 oz. and now some of that money just spend on slide lightening was now wasted money. Changing the rules like this and slowly loosing restrictions might be the best way to boost gun sales to the membership. Buy the best gun you can, until the rules allow something even just 1% better.

 

It would be interesting to know all the things considered in making those decisions. One could easily put together a conspiracy theory that it was 35 to benefit plastic guns. Then bumped to 45 around when the 43 oz legion came out but still just shy of shadow 2 numbers. Then maybe to throw CZ a bone bump the number to 59 after the A01 comes out. Not saying this is what happened it's just funny how it worked out.

 

In the end the members are the ones who loose out as they're constantly spending money. We can all say the equipment doesn't matter but that doesn't stop Johnny C class from wasting his money every time we change the rules. Hell even I know better but if they change the rules to allow a gun I like better I'll switch to it. 100% I'm jumping to 2011's in CO when this happens because I've just always liked them and have several. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Short sighted in my eyes.  Is the goal to attract more people to participate in USPSA with the guns they already own,  

 

 

I think CO as it is probably does this the best based on average gun owners I run into. as I mentioned earlier I see 50 students a week. I might see one optic and a couple SAO guns per class. Rarely do I see a SAO hi-cap gun let alone one with a optic. A better division to attract average joes would be like CO but with out the optic.

 

I think the goal must be something else. It's fine for the goal to just be "I like this better" or "this way makes more sense" but we always try to say it'll attract people when really most people don't want to compete and the rules don't matter they'll just come up with another excuse. 

[BritinUSA]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

From the explosion of CO once the mag capacity was changed indicates USPSA tapped into something.  Unintentionally or not.  

Look back at Production division when it was first introduced. It took more than TWO years to start significant growth. 

 

People keep harping on about the mag limit change being the driving force behind CO's popularity.

 

Correlation does not imply causation.
 

If magazine capacity is the main driver then explain the growth in Production and Production Optics in IPSC.

 

The core concept, Production gun + red dot, is growing world-wide with two different rule sets.
 

The only common denominators are Minor 9mm, DA/SA and red dots. 
 

That is the reason for the growth, period.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The core concept, Production gun + red dot, is growing world-wide with two different rule sets.

 

are they growing the same amount? is ipsc production declining by the same amount as uspsa production? if not, then you are jumping to conclusions.

 

Not everyone likes mostly short courses and lo-cap.

 

It certainly looks like ALL lo-cap divisions are pretty dead in the US.

Edited November 23, 2022 by motosapiens

[SufferInSilence]

Any new word in this topic? I recently spoke to a fella that runs a dang fine custom shop.  He says he talked with the prez at the CO natz and confirmed that LO was indeed coming in 2024.  
To that end, they already started working on several LO guns.  And they are fiiinnne!  

 

A few thoughts: 

- I say let’s go for it.  All the yays and nays aside, we’ve seen for decades how whatever gear, in the right hands, will give amazing results (think Bob Vogel on his Glock, Taran Butler on a plate rack bent elbow, Rob Latham and the Goat: Jerry) no matter what you give them they will produce, because while good gear matters, it’s the “Indian not the Arrow”.  

- I say level the playing field with allowing everyone a chance to run top shelf gear that is in tune with the millennium and current technology.  Once everyone is running basically the same stuff, we can focus on the things that matter most: transitions, movements, and splits.  
Once the gear race is leveled only the true students of the game will be match winners.

 

- Let’s also even consider throwing in SAOs into carry optics again we’ve seen for decades striker guns, DA/SAs, hell even wheel guns in the right hands, send us all home crying.  
Stop hiding behind your slicked out 5lbs DA initial trigger pull like it’s a handicap, it’s not!

If it is, break your piggy bank and get a SAO and move on.  
 

- Even if it’s approved you know it will be a division dominated by the same top 1% elite world shooters anyway, just like when they all ran from open into CO.  Nothing wrong with that, just stop acting like this will or won’t mean you’ll be taking home the gold because of a single action trigger.  
The greats will always be great, so go be great or continue having fun at the matches like always.  
 

- Let technology and innovation kill off outdated and unpopular divisions.  Stop worrying about the sport not being accessible to “new shooters” that ain’t you, they can shoot in any division with their new pew pew.  They weren’t going to win anything anyway.  As they grow they will invest in the game.  It will even out.  
 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

 I say level the playing field with allowing everyone a chance to run top shelf gear that is in tune with the millennium and current technology.  Once everyone is running basically the same stuff, we can focus on the things that matter most: transitions, movements, and splits.  
Once the gear race is leveled only the true students of the game will be match winners.

 

- Let’s also even consider throwing in SAOs into carry optics again we’ve seen for decades striker guns, DA/SAs, hell even wheel guns in the right hands, send us all home crying.  
Stop hiding behind your slicked out 5lbs DA initial trigger pull like it’s a handicap, it’s not!

If it is, break your piggy bank and get a SAO and move on. 

 

This is exactly why I keep bothering my AD to not let SAO in CO.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[RJH]

7 hours ago, SufferInSilence said:

Any new word in this topic? I recently spoke to a fella that runs a dang fine custom shop.  He says he talked with the prez at the CO natz and confirmed that LO was indeed coming in 2024.  
To that end, they already started working on several LO guns.  And they are fiiinnne!  

 

A few thoughts: 

- I say let’s go for it.  All the yays and nays aside, we’ve seen for decades how whatever gear, in the right hands, will give amazing results (think Bob Vogel on his Glock, Taran Butler on a plate rack bent elbow, Rob Latham and the Goat: Jerry) no matter what you give them they will produce, because while good gear matters, it’s the “Indian not the Arrow”.  

- I say level the playing field with allowing everyone a chance to run top shelf gear that is in tune with the millennium and current technology.  Once everyone is running basically the same stuff, we can focus on the things that matter most: transitions, movements, and splits.  
Once the gear race is leveled only the true students of the game will be match winners.

 

- Let’s also even consider throwing in SAOs into carry optics again we’ve seen for decades striker guns, DA/SAs, hell even wheel guns in the right hands, send us all home crying.  
Stop hiding behind your slicked out 5lbs DA initial trigger pull like it’s a handicap, it’s not!

If it is, break your piggy bank and get a SAO and move on.  
 

- Even if it’s approved you know it will be a division dominated by the same top 1% elite world shooters anyway, just like when they all ran from open into CO.  Nothing wrong with that, just stop acting like this will or won’t mean you’ll be taking home the gold because of a single action trigger.  
The greats will always be great, so go be great or continue having fun at the matches like always.  
 

- Let technology and innovation kill off outdated and unpopular divisions.  Stop worrying about the sport not being accessible to “new shooters” that ain’t you, they can shoot in any division with their new pew pew.  They weren’t going to win anything anyway.  As they grow they will invest in the game.  It will even out.  
 

 

Glad to hear this, even if it is third  hand info  

 

I watched a podcast and the prez vaguely hinted at something like this so a little more confirmation is great. Hopefully they will release provisional rules early 2023

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/23/2022 at 5:07 PM, BritinUSA said:

If magazine capacity is the main driver then explain the growth in Production and Production Optics in IPSC.

 

 

First don't they do 15 in the gun not 10 like our production? So they started out with better mag capacity. 2nd, you'll never shoot a 10 stage IPSC match with all 32 round stages. All their short courses and medium courses are going to make 15 rounds less of a issue. Plus there is more movement giving your more time to reload. And finally from what I understand in a lot of the world it can be challenging to get custom guns and major ammo. 

 

Vary much a apples to oranges comparison to read from their production turn out anything about our capacity rules. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

What’s LO ? Light optics ?

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

What’s LO ? Light optics ?

 

Limited Optics is the word on the streetz.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

So a SA option optics ? 
 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

So a SA option optics ? 
 

 

Yes, but more in the vein of how carry-ops is set up then how open is set up

[lroy]

Who are all these CO people that want to spend another $4000 on gear? Lol

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, lroy said:

Who are all these CO people that want to spend another $4000 on gear? Lol

 

There are several at my club that would be more than happy to switch if given the option. Not everybody, but several people I know would have much rather been given the option to shoot an Sao gun from the get-go instead of being forced to shoot a gun they don't really like for the other cool advantages of carryops. However, if it turns out to be limited optics and not carry ops with the addition of Sao, it won't affect carry-ops anyway. Other than taking some of their numbers

[lroy]

If they have money for that, I'd wager they run tricked out CO guns.

 

What would the difference be? A slightly better trigger and magwell?

Edited November 30, 2022 by lroy

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, lroy said:

If they have money for that, I'd wager they run tricked out CO guns.

 

What would the difference be? A slightly better trigger and magwell?

 

Difference in scores would actually probably be none, as discussed at length in multiple threads on this stuff lol.

 

Main difference is people would get to shoot the gun they prefer, a lot of people really like 2011 style guns, and other Sao guns. Not just for the trigger but for ergonomics and other such things. 

 

As far as money, there are now a few 2011 type guns and other nice Sao guns that can be had for about the same or even considerably less than a high-end carryops gun like an Accu Shadow 2.