PCC/RFRO 180 rules

[JM_]

Hey everyone, try to get clarification on the 180 for a flagged PCC/Rimfire Rifle while using a bag. The rules state you can use a 3 gun cart, and the rifle should be held vertically up or down when going to and from the firing line. Which most people know is fairly normal in the USPSA world. My question pertains to using a bag with the rifle. Say I take my rifle in a bag and flagged to the firing line and after make ready I uncase it and (with flag still inserted) hold the rifle vertical (as if I took it out from a cart), but in doing so I break the vertical 180 enough for it to be noticeable. Since I am using a bag, is this a DQ? If I wasn't using a bag, this wouldn't be a DQ, correct?

 

Same question goes for casing after the run is over, if the rifle is cleared and flagged, can it break the vertical 180 before its bagged? Because realistically using a range cart means you'll break the vertical 180 going to and from the firing line.

 

This isn't a personal example, but something I witnessed at one of my matches and it made me curious.

[bigdawgbeav]

I am trying to picture the scenario you are describing.  I can't think of a time when someone would uncase and then hold the PCC vertical while in the box.  Every match I have been to there is a table/barrel/etc. there to put the case on.  The shooter unzips the case, removes the PCC and keeps it pointed downrange.  Those who choose the cart route the PCC is typically pointing towards the ground at an angle.  When the make ready the cart is moved up to the box and they remove it from the cart keeping it pointed downrange.  An exception to this is shooters that have a scabbard or one of those rifle sleeves.  They will typically point the muzzle down, but still angled towards the berm.  The rules have no provision for breaking the 180 vertically.  They simply state to carry "reasonably" vertical.  Again, still don't see a scenario where someone would stage their case and on Make Ready take the rifle out and hold it up.

 

I have seen shooters DQ'd for breaking the horizontal 180 when casing/uncasing their flagged guns.  I had to warn a competitor this past weekend that he was close to the 180 when taking his RFRO out of the case.  He thanked me and changed his uncasing procedure so the muzzle was more downrange.

 

In Steel Challenge you are seeing less and less that cart their rifles and just leave them in the case since there is usually someplace to put the case next to the box.

 

I wonder what @ZackJones thinks...

[GigG]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

Say I take my rifle in a bag and flagged to the firing line and after make ready I uncase it and (with flag still inserted) hold the rifle vertical (as if I took it out from a cart), but in doing so I break the vertical 180 enough for it to be noticeable. Since I am using a bag, is this a DQ? If I wasn't using a bag, this wouldn't be a DQ, correct?

 

As long as it is "reasonably vertical" it wouldn't be a DQ in either case.

 

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

if the rifle is cleared and flagged, can it break the vertical 180 before its bagged?

Same answer.

 

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

Because realistically using a range cart means you'll break the vertical 180 going to and from the firing line.

 

Different rule.  When it is in a cart it must be "aimed" at the ground no further than 3 feet from the cart.

[JM_]

29 minutes ago, bigdawgbeav said:

I am trying to picture the scenario you are describing.  I can't think of a time when someone would uncase and then hold the PCC vertical while in the box.  Every match I have been to there is a table/barrel/etc. there to put the case on.  The shooter unzips the case, removes the PCC and keeps it pointed downrange.  Those who choose the cart route the PCC is typically pointing towards the ground at an angle.  When the make ready the cart is moved up to the box and they remove it from the cart keeping it pointed downrange.  An exception to this is shooters that have a scabbard or one of those rifle sleeves.  They will typically point the muzzle down, but still angled towards the berm.  The rules have no provision for breaking the 180 vertically.  They simply state to carry "reasonably" vertical.  Again, still don't see a scenario where someone would stage their case and on Make Ready take the rifle out and hold it up.

 

I have seen shooters DQ'd for breaking the horizontal 180 when casing/uncasing their flagged guns.  I had to warn a competitor this past weekend that he was close to the 180 when taking his RFRO out of the case.  He thanked me and changed his uncasing procedure so the muzzle was more downrange.

 

In Steel Challenge you are seeing less and less that cart their rifles and just leave them in the case since there is usually someplace to put the case next to the box.

 

I wonder what @ZackJones thinks...

In this situation the competitor after finishing, cleared and flagged his rifle then went vertical with it because he's used to USPSA. But then bagged it since they weren't using a cart. It was a situation I've never seen before and didn't know the ruling so I simply told him not to do it again.

[JM_]

35 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

As long as it is "reasonably vertical" it wouldn't be a DQ in either case.

 

Same answer.

 

 

Different rule.  When it is in a cart it must be "aimed" at the ground no further than 3 feet from the cart.

I suppose rule 8.1.6 "When casing or uncasing any firearm at the firing position, the muzzle of the firearm must always be pointed downrange." would apply though since he is using a bag and not a cart? 

[zzt]

IMO, this requires judgement.  I would not DQ the shooter in this instance, but I would remind him of 8.1.6 and ask him/her to comply.  There are differences in SCSA and shooters should be made aware of them.

[Gregg K]

I have asked for a change to 8.1.5 because it says that when leaving the line the rifle must be flagged and if not carried in a case the muzzle must be up. 8,1,7 says that when coming to the line that the rifle must be reasonably vertical up or down.

 

So by the rules the muzzle must be up or down coming to the line but must be up to leave the line, not very consistent.

[AR_James]

7 hours ago, GigG said:

Different rule.  When it is in a cart it must be "aimed" at the ground no further than 3 feet from the cart.

 

I can not find this "3 feet" rule in the Steel Challenge rules.  Are you perhaps getting this from USPSA rules?   While they have a lot of similarities, Steel Challenge does have it own rule set.  

 

Closest I could fine was "Carts may be used. When transporting rifles the use of chamber flags in each rifle is required, whether or not they are cased. The

muzzle of the rifle must point in a safe direction while in the cart."

[AR_James]

9 hours ago, JM_ said:

Say I take my rifle in a bag and flagged to the firing line and after make ready I uncase it and (with flag still inserted) hold the rifle vertical (as if I took it out from a cart), but in doing so I break the vertical 180 enough for it to be noticeable

 

I would think once the "Make Ready" command has been issued that the 180 rule would go into effect and stay in effect until the "Range is Clear" command is given regardless of how the firearm was brought to the line.  Based off this and rule 8.1.6 that you referenced, I would say it is a DQable offense.  But, reading the rest of the thread, I think you handled it reasonably and fairly.  

 

[GigG]

10 hours ago, AR_James said:

I can not find this "3 feet" rule in the Steel Challenge rules.  Are you perhaps getting this from USPSA rules?   While they have a lot of similarities, Steel Challenge does have it own rule set.  

 

Closest I could fine was "Carts may be used. When transporting rifles the use of chamber flags in each rifle is required, whether or not they are cased. The

muzzle of the rifle must point in a safe direction while in the cart."

 

You are correct. But since all SC ROs, CROs, & MDs went through the same class as the USPSA officials, what do you think will be considered a "safe direction" when they have to make the call?

[zzt]

12 hours ago, Gregg K said:

I have asked for a change to 8.1.5 because it says that when leaving the line the rifle must be flagged and if not carried in a case the muzzle must be up. 8,1,7 says that when coming to the line that the rifle must be reasonably vertical up or down.

 

So by the rules the muzzle must be up or down coming to the line but must be up to leave the line, not very consistent.

 

I would get rid of the down part.  Muzzle up is the best way.  You cannot sweep your foot muzzle up.

[Squirrel45]

In SASS you walk to and from the line with muzzles pointed up. Also the guns are loaded too. Totally different set a rules there for sure.

[ZackJones]

On 8/29/2022 at 3:56 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

I wonder what @ZackJones thinks...

 I read through the post and, like you, didn't get a clear understanding of what he was asking so I didn't jump in right away. As you pointed out if it's in a case and brought to the line and uncased as part of the Make Ready process the only 180 of concern is the one that extends to the left and right. I can't think of any reason why, when casing or uncasing a long gun you would come close to a vertical 180. The only exception being the scabbard cases where I've seen competitors "hook" the back of the case with the muzzle of the rifle and then point it towards the ground while sliding the rifle into it. 

 

Quick side note for those that have send in rule change recommendations please cc me (zack@uspsa.org) on those so I can keep a running list. During a recent rules committee meeting report during a BoD meeting I don't recall hearing anything regarding these rules. I've attended every BoD meeting since January and will continue to do so as long as I stay in my position with USPSA. If there's rules we need to tweak please keep me in the loop.

 

 

[Gregg K]

3 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 Quick side note for those that have send in rule change recommendations please cc me (zack@uspsa.org) on those so I can keep a running list. During a recent rules committee meeting report during a BoD meeting I don't recall hearing anything regarding these rules. I've attended every BoD meeting since January and will continue to do so as long as I stay in my position with USPSA. If there's rules we need to tweak please keep me in the loop.

Hi Zack

I forwarded an email that had a couple of rule discussions.

Gregg

[AR_James]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:03 AM, GigG said:

 

You are correct. But since all SC ROs, CROs, & MDs went through the same class as the USPSA officials, what do you think will be considered a "safe direction" when they have to make the call?

 

On the local/club level, I doubt very many "ROs/CROs/MDs" know either rule.  

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, AR_James said:

 

On the local/club level, I doubt very many "ROs/CROs/MDs" know either rule.  

 

kinda what happens when the procedure to get SC RO certified is so asinine SC only folks dont bother. SO you end up with folks whos only qualification is willingness

[GigG]

14 hours ago, AR_James said:

On the local/club level, I doubt very many "ROs/CROs/MDs" know either rule.  

 

 

Well that scares me as I will be moving to your area of the state in a few months. I'm sure I'll be popular as I keep a printed copy of the rules in my range bag.  

[GigG]

13 hours ago, Joe4d said:

when the procedure to get SC RO certified is so asinine SC only folks dont bother.

 

A day in a class and some range time followed by a couple of tests is asinine?

[Joe4d]

12 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

A day in a class and some range time followed by a couple of tests is asinine?

 2 days, most of which is all USPSA  THEN you take a USPSA exam on a sport you may have never shot and dont ever intend to.  and THEN a SC test  So yes.. Asinine for someone that just wants SC.  

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

A day in a class and some range time followed by a couple of tests is asinine?

 

Just guessing, he's probably talking about learning to use overlays and so many other things that don't apply to SC.

 

I'm a uspsa shooter and I still don't bother. It's a weekend away from the family, hotel stay, travel, food. That makes it expensive and time consuming. All so I can officially hold a timer and kind a learn the rules. 

[GigG]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

2 days, most of which is all USPSA 

 

Most of which is safety and works with both.

[zzt]

15 hours ago, AR_James said:

 

On the local/club level, I doubt very many "ROs/CROs/MDs" know either rule.  

 

 

Fortunately, that is not the case in my area.  Five years ago that was pretty much the norm.  Not now.  There are still two remaining occasional problems I wish were solved.

 

The first is USPSA ROs saying 'if clear, hammer down, holster' for rimfire pistols and expecting the shooter to comply.  There is no rimfire in USPSA, so it is understandable.  Correct them once or twice and the problem disappears.

 

The second is seasoned SCSA shooters ROing who refuse to use the correct commands.  For rimfire pistol they say something like 'slide closed, case'.  The won't say hammer down, holster because it is stupid.  I actually agree it is stupid to issue a command you don't expect to be followed.  However, I use the correct commands even though I get some quizzical looks.

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, GigG said:

 

Most of which is safety and works with both.

simply not true.. 
I have been a USPSA RO and CRO has been awhile, But the RO class, just about always ends up in scoring, no shoots, penalties, procedures,,legal stages,  yadda yadda yadda that have nothing to do with steel challenge.
SOME of the safety rules over lap some dont. 
A steel challenge only RO certification could be done in a short day.
Been pointed out in other threads Area coordinators dont seem to care that much about SC RO certification.
So IMO it woul dbe alot more benificial to complaign to USPSA about not spinning this off than about SC RO's not being well trained.
I just started with SC seems like a game for me. I will probably end up ROing at the club level... I wont be sitting through a day and a half of USPSA instructions or joining any orgs for that matter. Simply doesnt offer any value to me.

 

 

[zzt]

I'll second the notion NROI USPSA RO training has little to do with SCSA.  In fact, the RO training I received was entirely based around LII and LIII matches.  It wasn't until I ran shooters at LI matches I realized I had to pay attention to more things than I was taught.  Tip from experienced ROs and in these forums helped a lot.

 

I've probably said this a dozen times before, but I'll say it again.  Expecting someone who will never shoot anything but SCSA to sit through two days of studying and testing, 80+% of which has no applicability to SCSA, is imply daft.  If I didn't shoot USPSA I'd never have done it.

[ZackJones]

On 9/1/2022 at 2:19 PM, Joe4d said:

Been pointed out in other threads Area coordinators dont seem to care that much about SC RO certification.

There may be some area directors that may not seem to care but I know for a fact there are those that do care and would support a separate SCSA certification. 

 

Given this seems to be a pretty hot topic for many of you and if you're an active USPSA member email your area director areaX@uspsa.org (obviously replace x with 1-8) and tell him your thoughts about it. Unless you speak up directly to someone that can make a difference we'll never get it.