Question on a reshoot

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, Sarge said:

Tell your “friend” that RO’s have “authorized range commands only” ingrained in their heads from day one of RO class all the way through RM. 

  Interference doesn’t even require contact. If I’m working to clear a gun and you start talking I bet I could get a reshoot. This is why gamers work on a hopelessly broken gun for the full 2 minutes. They are waiting for the RO to screw up so they can get a reshoot.

Thank you for confirming that there is no rule. I agree that it is a best practice.

[GigG]

I think there is a rule or more specifically a group of rules...

 

The first is 7.1.1 that states the duties of an RO

7.1 Match Officials

The duties and terms of reference of Match Officials are defined as follows:

 

7.1.1  Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores, and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

 

 

Then there are those commands as listed in 8.3.

 

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, GigG said:

I think there is a rule or more specifically a group of rules...

 

The first is 7.1.1 that states the duties of an RO

7.1 Match Officials

The duties and terms of reference of Match Officials are defined as follows:

 

7.1.1  Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores, and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).

 

 

Then there are those commands as listed in 8.3.

 

i hope you don’t think that rule prohibits the RO from uttering anything other than a range command. in plain english it clearly does NOT say that.

[oddjob]

OP,

This happened to me with my Stock 2.  I had a broken firing pin from the previous stage.  Next stage...beep followed by clicking sounds.  I knew my gun was broken and told the RO I'm done.  I didn't want to waste anyone's time.  Naturally it had to happen at a level 2 match.  Scored as a ton of failure to shoot at and missed targets.  It's amazing how loud those  clicks can be.

Edited June 3, 2022 by oddjob

[driver8M3]

5 minutes ago, oddjob said:

OP,

This happened to me with my Stock 2.  I had a broken firing pin from the previous stage.  Next stage...beep followed by clicking sounds.  I knew my gun was broken and told the RO I'm done.  I didn't want to waste anyone's time.  Naturally it had to happen at a level 2 match.  Scored as a ton of failure to shoot at and missed targets.  It's amazing how loud those  clicks can be.

 

Was a time entered? It doesn't really matter since the stage score will be a zero either way, but it's easier, and more correct, to enter such a stage as a DNF (Did Not Fire) in Practiscore. If you don't enter DNF in the tablet you have to enter something that isn't accurate, usually 0.01 seconds.

9.10.3 - A competitor who reacts to a start signal but for any reason does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire. This constitutes a “Did Not Fire”, or DNF for the stage.

[RJH]

47 minutes ago, oddjob said:

OP,

This happened to me with my Stock 2.  I had a broken firing pin from the previous stage.  Next stage...beep followed by clicking sounds.  I knew my gun was broken and told the RO I'm done.  I didn't want to waste anyone's time.  Naturally it had to happen at a level 2 match.  Scored as a ton of failure to shoot at and missed targets.  It's amazing how loud those  clicks can be.

 

These are the times when the "can't be below zero rule" is nice

[oddjob]

I'm going off memory here....I think the tablet wouldn't accept a "0.00".  I think a time was entered (maybe 1.0 seconds) and then scored.  I'm not sure.  Either way I fell on the sword and bled out!  Side note....The firing pin lasted about 40k rounds.

[GigG]

12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i hope you don’t think that rule prohibits the RO from uttering anything other than a range command. in plain english it clearly does NOT say that.

I don't. But in some circumstances other things could be ruled as coaching and/or interference.

[Bagellord]

I've always followed the rule of range commands only prior to the start signal, unless the shooter asks me a direct question. After the start signal, I say or do nothing but the correct range commands. I figure if I do it this way, I can avoid any sort of RO interference.

 

Note: I will coach at level 1's, when appropriate (new shooter for example).

[euxx]

On 6/1/2022 at 8:36 PM, Sarge said:

Because the rules say those are authorized? But if you are clearing a jamb and the RO says come on man lets move along, that's interference

 

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire.

 

It doesn't mean that RO has to offer that reshoot.

[euxx]

20 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i hope you don’t think that rule prohibits the RO from uttering anything other than a range command. in plain english it clearly does NOT say that.

 

Can't say what they are teaching ROs at their USPSA seminar. But the IPSC IROA seminar pretty much says those are the ONLY commands you can use at the range.

 

Basically in this case the RO can give command "If You Are Finished, Unload and Show Clear" at any time and that won't be an interference.

[euxx]

17 hours ago, oddjob said:

I'm going off memory here....I think the tablet wouldn't accept a "0.00".  I think a time was entered (maybe 1.0 seconds) and then scored.  I'm not sure.  Either way I fell on the sword and bled out!  Side note....The firing pin lasted about 40k rounds.

 

You need to refresh your memory. the tablet has a special button for DNF-ing a stage.

 

PS: DNF-ing a string is a separate story and it has its own can of worms

[euxx]

8 hours ago, GigG said:

I don't. But in some circumstances other things could be ruled as coaching and/or interference.

 

There is also this:

 

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.
 

[oddjob]

"You need to refresh your memory. the tablet has a special button for DNF-ing a stage."

 

Looked it up on Practiscore.  Time entered was .01 with 28 miss and 13 Procedurals.

 

Now I have PTSD. 

[euxx]

2 hours ago, oddjob said:

"You need to refresh your memory. the tablet has a special button for DNF-ing a stage."

 

Looked it up on Practiscore.  Time entered was .01 with 28 miss and 13 Procedurals.

 

Now I have PTSD. 

 

If someone scored it like that it doesn't make it right.

 

[Jollymon32]

On 6/3/2022 at 12:37 AM, oddjob said:

I'm going off memory here....I think the tablet wouldn't accept a "0.00".  I think a time was entered (maybe 1.0 seconds) and then scored.  I'm not sure.  Either way I fell on the sword and bled out!  Side note....The firing pin lasted about 40k rounds.

If that happened to me, and someone entered the incorrect time, I would ask for a reshoot.  And as precedent, I would state what I witnessed firsthand as an RO in an area match; DNROI Issued the shooter a reshoot when the CRO entered .01 for the time instead of entering DNF.  Shooter successfully argued that the wrong time had been entered.

[oddjob]

7 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

If that happened to me, and someone entered the incorrect time, I would ask for a reshoot.  And as precedent, I would state what I witnessed firsthand as an RO in an area match; DNROI Issued the shooter a reshoot when the CRO entered .01 for the time instead of entering DNF.  Shooter successfully argued that the wrong time had been entered.

Good to know

[davsco]

11 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

If that happened to me, and someone entered the incorrect time, I would ask for a reshoot.  And as precedent, I would state what I witnessed firsthand as an RO in an area match; DNROI Issued the shooter a reshoot when the CRO entered .01 for the time instead of entering DNF.  Shooter successfully argued that the wrong time had been entered.

surprised that a reshoot would be issued for this.  couldn't they just fix the score/time to what it should be?

[euxx]

15 hours ago, davsco said:

surprised that a reshoot would be issued for this.  couldn't they just fix the score/time to what it should be?

 

Interesting question. I think it is pretty much covered by 9.7.4: 

 

9.7.4 When a score has been affirmed by both the competitor and Range Officer, the score (whether on paper or electronic device) is considered conclusive evidence that the time, scores and penalties as recorded are accurate and uncontested.  The score (whether on paper or electronic device) is deemed to be definitive.  It may only be changed to add penalties under Rule 8.6.2, or to correct arithmetical errors, or by mutual consent of the competitor and the originating Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision. Changes are defined as modifications to the score sheet after both parties have signed off on the score sheet.

I don't really see reasons for reshoot after competitor accepted the score, or even if he refused to accept it and matter referred to RM as per 9.7.3.

PS: I've heard that DNROI been instructing ROs to enter 0.01 in some of DNF-related cases

[Unibrain]

1 hour ago, euxx said:

PS: I've heard that DNROI been instructing ROs to enter 0.01 in some of DNF-related cases

PractiScore does not allow you to enter a zero as a time.  If the stage is multi-string and someone has a malfunction after the beep on a string you can't DNF them for the stage.  There is currently no way to enter the score "properly" so you enter 0.01 and all the M/FTSA.

[euxx]

22 minutes ago, Unibrain said:

If the stage is multi-string and someone has a malfunction after the beep on a string you can't DNF them for the stage.

 

Technically, USPSA rules are NOT prohibiting you from doing so.

 

BTW, I haven't heard from DNROI that entering a 0.01 is being an issue in the PractiScore app(s). Hence nothing is being done about it.

[Unibrain]

4 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

Technically, USPSA rules are NOT prohibiting you from doing so.

 

 

I beg to differ.  

 

During a Standard Exercise, I complete string 1 successfully with a time and hits.  I get the beep and respond to it for string 2 and as I draw the slide falls off my gun.  I can't fix it within the 2 mins. The RO terminates the Course of Fire according to 5.7.4.   I did not DNF the stage so USPSA rules prohibit me from being issued a DNF. 

 

9.10.3 discusses DNF on a course of fire not string. The course of fire begins at Make Ready and Ends at Range is clear.  On a multi string stage the course is normally not cleared between strings so it is one course of fire.

 

The scoring SW forces me to enter a time other than 0, such as 0.01, and all the M and FTSA.    One could argue, probably unsuccessfully, that 9.7.4 would give the competitor and the RO the obligation not to enter and approve the incorrect time

 

For reference

6.1.1  String – A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded, and the targets taped between strings. The time component of all strings will be totaled, and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result.

 

9.7.4 When a score has been affirmed by both the competitor and Range Officer, the score (whether on paper or electronic device) is considered conclusive evidence that the time, scores and penalties as recorded are accurate and uncontested.

 

9.10.3  A competitor who reacts to a start signal but for any reason does not fire a shot or continue the attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire. This constitutes a “Did Not Fire”, or DNF for the stage.

 

[euxx]

3 hours ago, Unibrain said:

During a Standard Exercise, I complete string 1 successfully with a time and hits.  I get the beep and respond to it for string 2 and as I draw the slide falls off my gun.  I can't fix it within the 2 mins. The RO terminates the Course of Fire according to 5.7.4.   I did not DNF the stage so USPSA rules prohibit me from being issued a DNF. 

The rule I was referring to is:

5.7.6 Where the firearm has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a firearm is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any un-attempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the firearm has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

 

It says "may be attempted", but not "must be attempted". So, when the strings wasn't attempted I still think 9.10.3 can be applied for entire stage if any of the strings are unfinished. And there is also 9.7.6.1 for the missing time.

 

[Unibrain]

31 minutes ago, euxx said:

So, when the strings wasn't attempted I still think 9.10.3 can be applied for entire stage if any of the strings are unfinished. And there is also 9.7.6.1 for the missing time.

 

In my example, a Standard Exercise when there is a valid time on string 1 and no time on string 2, this doesn’t meet the criteria in 9.10.3 for a DNF.  Shots were fired in String 1 and both strings were finished with the 2nd string having no time and a bunch of M/FTSA.  
 

As for 9.7.6.1 the time is not missing because there is a time for string 1.  Following 6.1.1 “The time component of all strings will be totaled, and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result”

 

Standard Exercises can consist of 2 or more strings.  Extend my example to the malfunction occurring in string 3. Surely you are not suggesting I take a DNF and a zero score.    

[euxx]

51 minutes ago, Unibrain said:

 

As for 9.7.6.1 the time is not missing because there is a time for string 1.  Following 6.1.1 “The time component of all strings will be totaled, and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result”

 

The first part is kinda the half full vs half empty dilemma. But you can't total something which isn't there, as one of the strings had no time...