Vertical Foregrips...

[tewlman]

You see a lot of "operator type" AR's with vertical grips, but not too many in Ipsc. Do you think they are a worthy tool or do you think they are a waste of time?

They look comfortable

they could potentially get in the way

most provide a neat place to store "stuff"

they add extra weight.

lets hear your input.

[kellyn]

Our own Erik Lund likes them. And he is about the only one ...........

I like them on a "tactical" rifle because it is easier to operate the flashlight. I don't like them on a competition rifle since I feel they slow transitions, make the rifle harder to point, and get in the way when you want to rest the handguard on a rest. Just my opinion.

[John Heiter]

I think Kelly is right. It all depends on how you plan to use the gun. I've got a friend just back from Iraq who wanted me to put together an AR for him and wanted a vertical grip. He said most of the guys over there are using them. I guess there's a difference if you're trying to run and shoot up some cardboard vs. using one to clear a room.

[tewlman]

yeah, I am not discussing the practical uses of a vertical grip anywhere but in uspsa/ipsc/imga. I dont know anything about tactics and wont discuss its uses in areas that i have not knowledge of.

[John Heiter]

I'm actually right there with you and wasn't trying to open up any sort of tactical/practical discussion. I just find it interesting that so many things born in competition (ex. red dot sights) seem to be finding a home in practical applications and so I also thought it was interesting that some like vertical foregrips do not seem to translate across well.

Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to go mall ninja all over your thread.

[smokshwn]

I think the use of a vert. foregrip is largely dependant on your platform. If you are clearing rooms etc. you are very tight and compact on the gun (elbows in head down etc). In this setup the foregrip is helpful in moving the gun. In a match environment we want to be a little more spread out on the gun. Head up, elbows out etc. which promotes faster movement and more stability to the platform.

I think that is why you see the two camps on the vert. foregrip.

Craig

[George]

In the last few years, the only shooter I have ever seen do well with one attached to an AR is Eric Lund.

Mostly I see them on AR's brought to the Tactibilly classes run at our range by a trainer that rents the space ocassionally. But seriously, they seem to actually work well for that type of drill.

[tewlman]

Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to go mall ninja all over your thread.

no prob ninja!

i just didnt want anyone to think I was trying to go tactical or something.

I am building a new rifle and was considering the option of a vertical grip. It might end up be a component i try to see if i like it, but like you mentioned a lot of guys in the Gulf are using them and you would tend to think more would show up on the range.

Edited November 18, 2005 by tewlman

[Vlad]

I admit to being a rifle n00b, but whenever I felt the need for a vertical grip, I grabed the magwell and it did a fine job.

[kellyn]

Egads! That's worse!

I've noticed that Mil/LEO training often has the shooter "choking up" on the rifle. For example using vert. foregrips near the mag well or grasping the mag well with the support hand. I have no idea if that is better (or not better) for clearing a room in Fallujah or Phoenix. It does make the shooter tuck his elbows in.

I do know that choking up on the rifle is not the way to compete with one. The support hand should be farther out on the rifle. How far? That depends on the shooter. Many very good three gunners hold the rifle (or shotgun) all the way to end of the handguard. Nobody who is winning or even placing chokes up on the rifle. Why? It slows down target transition. I have fired from some pretty confined spaces and never felt that my offhand shooting platform was too wide.

I'd really like to say that vert. foregrips just suck but Erik shoots with one too well for me to make that generalization.

FYI Scott Medesha (medeshafirearms.com) makes a sweet handguard that has an easy to take on/off vert. foregrip. Give that a try and you can go either way.

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm not a high end shooter, ( I usually finish somewhere in the middle at national level matches, and somewhere around the top 33-10% at local matches depending how good a day I'm having).

That said, I like vertical grips...I have them on all my rifles and shotguns that can accept them. The rifles that don't have them, I tend to grip around the mag well. I'd probably like my Benelli M3 even more if it had a vertical grip.

The vertical grip puts my hand in a more natural position. I do prefer to shoot in as squared off a stance as possible with my elbows tucked in as much as possible. This stance feels more comfortable/natural for me. It's also what I've learned at courses I've attended (having two different shooting styles is a good way to confuse ones' self). We can discuss the reasons this stance is taught if you guys care to...but that is going to the more "tactical" side of things.

The vertical grip can be useful as a monopod or brace on and against barricades.

The vertical grip makes it easier to fire the gun off my shoulder around barricades etc. at close distances.

Kelly, are we sure that using a vertical grip/"choked up" stance actually slows down target transitions? Or is it that the people who excell in shooting rifles have always shot a particular way and are thus more effective at it simply through reptition? If you've always shot a particular way that is very effective, switching to something else is sure to feel unnatural and require significant retraining to be as good at. The new technique or tool would have to offer an appreciable advantage to make it worth while for an accomplished skilled shooter to switch.

Edited November 18, 2005 by SinistralRifleman

[chp5]

I don't use one in competition, but I do have an upper with one. When I use the VF, I still grab the handguard and only my pinky and ring finger touch the VF.

This feel very natural and I like it. They do limit you on how/where you can put the forearm for an improvised rest. I may try it in some local matches in the future.

I recently had a chance to shoot some full auto M-4's and M16's. The VF seemed to help my hold when shooting full auto.

[kellyn]

Kelly, are we sure that using a vertical grip/"choked up" stance actually slows down target transitions? Or is it that the people who excell in shooting rifles have always shot a particular way and are thus more effective at it simply through reptition? If you've always shot a particular way that is very effective, switching to something else is sure to feel unnatural and require significant retraining to be as good at. The new technique or tool would have to offer an appreciable advantage to make it worth while for an accomplished skilled shooter to switch.

For me, yes I'm sure. Practical shooters are pretty open minded and rarely wedded to any one technique. I have tried rifles with vert. grips. I've owned two rifles with the Medesha foreend and experimented with the vert. grip. Choked up stances are terrible for target transtions. If I asked you to point at something or a series of things you would extend your arm and point, not draw your arm back, fold it up and point. Vertical foregrips (again at least for me) are mildly slower but not nearly as bad as holding on to the mag well.

I disagree with your statement about significant retraining being an impediment to people using vert. foregrips. I've not always shot a rifle the same way and my technique is continuing to change and evolve. I came from the staid world of highpower and silhouette and have had to significantly modify technique. My offhand shooting stance for action shooting is nothing like the one used for highpower. It is more akin to a sporting clays stance (and you certainly don't see vert foregrips on the shotguns used in the world of moving targets). When I started this game, I watched how the big dawgs did it (still do). Watching Jimmy Clark Jr, in particular, challenged most of my dogma regarding rifle shooting.

What I'm getting at is that good practical shooters constantly try, test, adopt and reject things (something that many LEO/Mil types are loathe to do). The vert. grip has not passed that test for me or many others (of course there is that pesky Erik Lund) but if you shoot better with one, then go for it.

[latewatch]

Steve,

I have a VF on my Patrol Rifle but, not on the rifle I shoot 3 Gun with. For me, a VF allows a more compact stance, it allows for more options when mounting slings and tactical lights and to me it is also more comfortable when maintaining a ready position for extended periods. On my 3 Gun rifle none of those things are really important and I feel that it is faster and more stable for precise shots without it.

Not to mention that VF's are way sexy and the chicks dig it!!!!

[SinistralRifleman]

For me, yes I'm sure. Practical shooters are pretty open minded and rarely wedded to any one technique. I have tried rifles with vert. grips. I've owned two rifles with the Medesha foreend and experimented with the vert. grip. Choked up stances are terrible for target transtions. If I asked you to point at something or a series of things you would extend your arm and point, not draw your arm back, fold it up and point. Vertical foregrips (again at least for me) are mildly slower but not nearly as bad as holding on to the mag well.

That's a good explanation of the human mechanics part of the equation.

[Paule]

Best reason for a vertical grip is when you have to fire a few hundred rounds in a few minutes, then continue holding the gun. 3-gun doesn't require that, obviously. For most, transitions are much faster with an extended off hand, splits are faster with a vertical grip. Much more time to save on the splits though. I did see a guy nearly pull himself head first through a port though... stuck it too far through the port to shoot then got hung up getting back out.

[Religious Shooter]

I saw Lund shoot the long rifle stage (#10) at the Nationals. The second thing I noticed about his gun was the lack of a "dildo" (as Mr. Hill calls it in another thread). I thought Lund had changed his mind about it. But maybe he takes it on and off depending on the stage?

[Chuck Anderson]

I think the biggest advantage of the Vertical Foregrip comes from the times it's not being shot. I tended to be slower and not as accurrate when I used a vertical foregrip. However, I could hold the rifle at the ready for longer. I think this was because I was holding it in closer to my body and had a better mechanical advantage. Right now I have four rifles without vertical foregrips, three match and my duty rifle. I also have two that have vertical foregrips. I'm using these more as a test bed for playing with different techniques. I haven't found that I particularly like either.

[Bigbadaboom]

A vertical forgrip is very "Practical" if you use a Beta C-Mag. If you use regular 30-40 rounders then it's pretty much whatever floats your boat.

[BPiatt]

I've tried VF's for 3-gun matches ... more than once but I just can't shoot them. Transistions are slower and/ or sloppier, shot to shot is definately slower, they're in the way when you have a rest to use, arms are in a strange place when I'm prone and using the mag as a mono pod....

VF's are almost mandatory if you have an M-4 with white light, ir light, ir laser clamped on.

There's just no room left to hold onto.

Bruce

[Sako92S]

I use vertical grip on my DPMS pump action rifle.

It is much better with it than without it.

[Brian Payne]

The VF's come in handy when firing full auto or burst. I like the elbows locked in and choked up feeling. Just seems easier to control when firing or when conducting a long search or entry. I also like to have it slung very tight.

Doesn't work for crap in competition though.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Sgt

[Bear1142]

Well, sorry I was so slow on this thread. I've been away from the computer all weekend.

Vertical foregrips. They kinda remind me of the Glocks, either you love'm or not. I'll humbly offer a few observations about the use of the vertical foregrips for some of you considering or actually trying them out in competition.

One of the main reasons I use a Vertical Foregrip (VF) is for consistency in my technique. I'm a huge proponent of keeping your shooting technique (or form), as consistent as possible across all three shooting platforms (pistol, rifle, shotgun.) I'll not go into all the reasons for this, but most of them should be pretty evident. How does this consistency work with a rifle? Think about the modern, two-handed pistol grip. Our support hand rests along the frame of the pistol with our thumb pointed at the target and our wrist locked in line with our forearm. This is a very stable and secure technique for managing pistol recoil. Once again, I'll not go into why this grip is the most dominant technique used, but the quick reason is, it currently works better than any other technique and I don't know of a single top 25 shooter that uses another support hand grip.

Applying this technique to the use of a VF, think of the VF attached to the FF tube as nothing more than the support side of your pistol. I position the VF on the rail at the same distance as my pistol would be from my body. One of the most critical flaws I see when people attempt to use the VF is to wrap their thumb around the base on the grip similar to how you would hold a baseball bat. This hold severly reduces the effectiveness of this technique as it has the effect of placing the support hand well below the bore axis of the rifle which reduces your stability. Just like our support hand pistol technique, we want to get as high up on the VF and FF tube as we can to position our support hand level or slightly higher than the bore axis of the rifle. If you take your support hand and roll your thumb forward and lock your wrist, you have your support hand pistol grip. Now take that same grip and grast the VF. My thumb actually rests along the side of the FF tube, my pointer finger rests underneath the FF tube and only my next three fingers are actually using the VF. If you want to get technical about it, I only half-use the VF. the other half uses the FF tube. Using this technique, my support hand absorbs more of the rifles recoil than if I were to just use the FF tube only. This technique stablilizes the rifle incredibly well for distance shots and allows me to really drive the rifle on the up close hose stages. Transitions are very fast and my splits are generally around .15 with pretty tight pairings.

I like them on a "tactical" rifle because it is easier to operate the flashlight.

I can't stand the switches on the VF, I place them alongside the FF tube where my thumb rests.

I grabed the magwell and it did a fine job.....Egads! That's worse!

I totally agree, grabbing the magwell is a panacea. If feels nice but it does nothing for your technique, other than looking cool. I think most "operators" grab the mag well because there is no room on the foregrip for their hand after they get done hanging all of their accessories on the rifle.

Choked up stances are terrible for target transtions.

I'll disagree with the stance portion of this statement. Think about making a 180 degree swing with your pistol. You don't leave the pistol extended the make the turn. You bring the pistol into your body, turn and drive the pistol out to the target. Watch a figure skater doing spins (cause I can't spell perowet), they spin faster when their hands come closer into their bodies.

Regarding choked up hand positions, I completely agree.

Not to mention that VF's are way sexy and the chicks dig it!!!!

They do have a very high CDI factor!

I saw Lund shoot the long rifle stage (#10) at the Nationals. The second thing I noticed about his gun was the lack of a "dildo" (as Mr. Hill calls it in another thread). I thought Lund had changed his mind about it. But maybe he takes it on and off depending on the stage?

Yes, I can and do take if off occasionally depending on the stage. Although I prefer to use a VF, I'm not locked into the technique all the time. It depends on the stage. I probably take if off about 10% of the time.

Religious Shooter, what was the first thing you noticed about the rifle?

arms are in a strange place when I'm prone and using the mag as a mono pod....

When I shoot prone, I'll move the VF forward and use it as a stop to lock in the rifle with my support hand. I don't like monopodding off the magazine...bad ju-ju.

The VF's come in handy when firing full auto or burst....Doesn't work for crap in competition though.

Why would it work for one, but not another? A high speed split (.11-.15) is nothing more than a two shot burst?

I hope this sheds some light on it's use. VF's are a very versatile tool with many other uses not covered here that can dramatically improve you rifle shooting if you use them correctly. Of course, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if nobody else ever used them. I'll need all the help I can get trying to swipe that National Title from KellyN.

Erik

Edited November 22, 2005 by Bear1142

[Wakal]

I finally broke down and bought (and even installed) one. Never cared for them on "real" guns, but a vertical foregrip was a necessity.

On my 7.5" SBR AR15.

Darn aluminum carbine-length free-float forend gets so hot, so fast, that The Gang was reduced to clutching the front of the magazine well. Which doesn't help accuracy on the 200 yard chickens

One YHM folding grip later, the little gun is extra-pimpy.

But I still don't like them on my real rifles...just the wrong angle to annoy my left wrist and distract me from my already horrible shooting

Alex

[Religious Shooter]

Religious Shooter, what was the first thing you noticed about the rifle?

At the time I was keyed on the various optics being used. I noticed that Jerry M was using a Burris or a Bushnell (don't remember). Since it was such a unorthodox choice I started noticing the out of the ordinary scopes.

So the first thing I noticed about your rifle was the optic you used and how nobody else in the two Super Squads was using it (Weaver or Simmons?).

Then I thought "Lund = ninja user of the VF" and so I wanted to see how you were going to use it. Then I noticed you didn't have the VF on.

Nice run BTW.