Dave Wilson Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 (edited) Group, Here is the email I have just sent to USPSA re: our failed attempt at having my son shoot his first match today in USPSA. Names of individuals will be edited out, otherwise it is the complete test, I will comment / question below the email..... Events: My son (11yrs) and I showed up for his first USPSA match at the Range today. At the sign in xxxxxx xxxxxx told us that we needed Match Director’s (xxxx xxxxxx) permission for someone of his age to shoot, and that the minimum age MIGHT be 12 (but that she was not sure on that). I will add here that she was very polite while doing so. We asked and were told where to find the MD. We found the MD setting up one of the stages and informed him that we needed his permission for my son to shoot. He said that yes we did need his approval, and he needed to run my son through (did not specify how many targets or stages) in order to let him shoot. I asked about when he wanted to do that, thinking in terms of TODAY, he said on a practice day. He then told me that since he no longer was in charge of IDPA shoots at that he only comes out once a month. After I again asked when he wanted to do this, as I was still thinking that my son could shoot today, he asked when I would be coming out for a practice day. At this range, unless you are a committee member of one of the venues and are awarded a key to the facility, and meet other requirements, a shooter can only shoot there during designated rare practice/setup days or at matches. I did try to stress that my son has shot other venues at the facility, Steel Challenge and ICORE, the MD felt that these did not prove his competence, and would not take anyone else’s word for his record of competence or safety. He did not feel that the run and gun nature of ICORE counted as well. After seeing that my son was not going to be allowed to shoot for the day, we left the stage and went back to the registration table and asked xxxxxx xxxxxx to tear up our Liability waivers as since my son was not allowed to shoot we would be forgoing the event. She did say then that she was aware that he had shot other venues but even ICORE did not count for a run and gun type event. I informed her that it was so (as did another regular ICORE shooter) and she politely apologized. We were still not allowed to have my son shoot the event. On the way home my son, who has been practicing his butt off for this, turned to me and asked if this was always the case with any shooter or just the junior shooters or just him in particular, and he asked, how old do I have to be, before people believe that I can shoot with them. For an organization that comes across as trying to promote junior shooters, this sure doesn’t look good. Does this make me want to give up my membership to USPSA? Yes, but as I hope this isn’t the normal treatment that the junior shooters are afforded elsewhere, I will remain a member as well as making my son a member to be able to shoot in the larger matches. I guess what I am after in this email is to get clarification on rules and procedures regarding the aforementioned events of today. Regards, Dave Wilson USPSA# A-54473 Alden Wilson -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, what do you think? Is this the normal ops everywhere? What is the (trick question here) minimum age in the rule book???? frustrated Edited April 14, 2006 by Dave Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 We found the MD setting up one of the stages and informed him that we needed his permission for my son to shoot. He said that yes we did need his approval, and he needed to run my son through (did not specify how many targets or stages) in order to let him shoot. I asked about when he wanted to do that, thinking in terms of TODAY, he said on a practice day. He then told me that since he no longer was in charge of IDPA shoots at SLOSA that he only comes out once a month. After I again asked when he wanted to do this, as I was still thinking that my son could shoot today, he asked when I would be coming out for a practice day. At this range, unless you are a committee member of one of the venues and are awarded a key to the facility, and meet other requirements, a shooter can only shoot there during designated rare practice/setup days or at matches.I did try to stress that my son has shot other venues at the facility, Steel Challenge and ICORE, the MD felt that these did not prove his competence, and would not take anyone else’s word for his record of competence or safety. He did not feel that the run and gun nature of ICORE counted as well. With just this information to go on....I am sitting here shaking my head.... Sad Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Most definitely NOT the case for all USPSA matches..... sounds like a local issue. Sorry for your trouble, don't give up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 sad, sad. The MD should have gone out of his way to see that your son can get some time to shoot, even if he walked through as the ro with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 sad, sad. The MD should have gone out of his way to see that your son can get some time to shoot, even if he walked through as the ro with him. I am ABSOLUTLEY convinced that at any of the local matches I frequent that is exactly what would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Wilson Posted November 12, 2005 Author Share Posted November 12, 2005 Well here I have a kid who has in my eyes, shown a extremely high regard for safety at the range, starting to doubt himself. As far as run and gun matches go, he has shot in ICORE with his 6 1/2 " 686 and they let him start off with a XD-9 just to get experience before we got him the 686. I have yet to go home from a match with him that his range safety wasn't commented on by other shooters in the squad. As far as being able to operate it safely, he has spent a LOT of time unfortunately learning to cope with ftf problems and clearing jams is almost a second nature thing. He had someone asking about the recoil spring setup the other day at the range, they took it to the safe area and he just went ahead and stripped it down and handed the guy the spring to look at. So#1 he is safe while moving or stationary, and #2 mechanicaly speaking he can operate the pistol with no problems. Sorry folks, I really didn't want to go into the rant and soapbox mode, but merely trying to gain insight. Maybe this belongs in the I hate forum? It's been a very frustrating day for me to say the very least Dave Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberkid Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 I'd call USPSA and tell them specific names of the club, and persons involved and ask them what the official USPSA policy is, and what can be done locally. If they arent going to adhere to USPSA rules, they might not get their memership renewed. I think that is unlikely, but hopefully a couple pissed of phone calls will be made, and the appropriate apologies issued. This is exactly the very core reason that we dont have 10X the membership. People treat new/young shooters as if they are somehow below the rest of us. None of us had any idea how to do the things we do until we were shown, it is now our responsibility to pass that on in a helpful, constructive manner. Tell your son not to ever let these people discourage him, the best revenge is victory. When he finally does get allowed to shoot there (and some day he will) show up and kick all their asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Wilson Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 hey i just wanted to say that im the son(Dave's) and i feel really bummed out that we had to leave, and that we had to load all those rounds, and waste all that gas(we live quite a way from the range). I just hope this problem gets resolved asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ammo_burner21 Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 i started shooting this game with my dad when i was 11. i'm 17 now and i have never came into a problem like this. The only thing that i had to have at ranges was someone that was 21 or older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 The clubs I shoot at welcome new shooters and juniors. Based on your writeup, I would say that maybe the club needs to rethink their policy. However, also try to see the issue from their perspective. MD's are people too, and maybe he was having a bad day, setting up stages without enough volunteers, maybe out of coffee, and the last thing he wanted was to coach a "kid". It may not be an excuse, but a reason. We all have grouchy days. The one thing I would agree with is a mandatory safety check for all new shooters, regardless of their stated previous experience. However it doesnt take long to have a new shooter take a few shots, do a reload ( to prove that they can handle their gun ) and prove that they understand the range commands. Our local monthly match often has 3 to 4 new shooters and a safety check takes one of the regular members about 10 minutes. Then you squad the new shooters with those more experienced and have them watch them and coach them. Age also does enter into it. Most people think that 11 years olds cant run with scissors nevermind guns, and mostly they are right. However there are pleanty of 11 year olds who can be trusted if supervised, but if you never seen one before you may dismiss them all. All in all, I'm sorry about your experiences and I hope you find a USPSA club where you can both shoot and have fun, or convince the club referenced above to change their policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 It's sad that any eager, safe shoot would be denied shooting a match. With that said our club requires anyone who hasn't shot an IPSC match to either be approved by the MD (because he has seen them shoot) or take a short safety class, which is offered every day there is a match before the match starts. What I'm saying is that ANY new shooter, no matter how old should contact the MD before the match to ask what he needs to do to be able to shoot the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Sorry to hear about your experience Alden. Like they said, it can be just a local issue. Occasionally, I see a junior shooter in our monthly matches as young as 9 years old. I even squaded with a 9 year old girl who was shooting in Open division who can even out shoot the new shooters. Like Kingman said, the MD could have RO'ed you and just let you walk the stages. Some clubs would let new shooters come half our early to get them oriented before the match. Just show them when you're finally allowed to shoot there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 First of all, as a soon to be life member of the USPSA, let me say you deserve an apology from the folks who, for whatever reason did not allow this young man to shoot. There may be an age restriction imposed by the local shooting facility, but to the best of my knowledge there is no USPSA age restriction and all junior shooters are to be encouraged. Hang in there Alden and welcome to USPSA shooting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Hello Alden, and welcome to USPSA! Sometimes getting a raw deal can be a very good motivator. No one likes getting dissed! I recommend that you channel your frustration into practice and get very, very, good. Then everybody can have a good laugh about the day Alden Wilson showed up and this silly MD didn't think he was good enough to shoot. Really, if you're only 11 and already shooting ICORE, dude....YOU ROCK!! Never give up. Never surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 (edited) What was so hard about letting your kid shoot the first stage of the day before everyone else to demonstrate his ability? Likewise there is a club here in NJ that I went to shoot my first USPSA match a year ago. Bare in mind I have been shooting IDPA for a couple of years but I was turned away by the MD. At the time I was told that to shoot one of his matches you have to either attend his annual new shooters seminar or take the long drive down to Old Bridge for a match. It po'd me to the point where I haven't bothered to go back. I am all for having a safe sport but at what point do we cut our noses off to spite our own faces. Every IDPA match I have attended has allowed first time shooters to show up and participate. It is sad when short sighted MD's turn away people interested in the sport. Edited November 13, 2005 by rubberneck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 c'mon up to NorCal...he is welcome to shoot with us ANYTIME. PM me for details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 I first started shooting this sport at quite a young age. I was 10 or so and shot it with a smith 4516 the first time I ever shot through. I can assure you to stay positive. There are people out there wililng to help and coach a young shooter along. The thing is if someone sees whats going on a large deal of help may be gained, especially from this board. Be positive, stay smart. You will get to shoot an uspsa match, and you will do well. Sometimes also when you are a young shooter some of the more experienced shooters will take you under their wing so to speak, and you will never forget your young years shooting. I will never forget people like Tom Langley, Jerry Wisecarver, and Larry Brown that really got me into this sport and helped me along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 At the time I was told that to shoot one of his matches you have to either attend his annual new shooters seminar or take the long drive down to Old Bridge for a match. It po'd me to the point where I haven't bothered to go back. Doh. Well, you should have taken the long drive to Old Bridge, you would have had fun and we ran you through a quick safety check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 I have RO'd a number of young shooters and the biggest problem I have seen is me keeping up with them on field courses. I have yet to run across a young shooter that is any less safe than many of the so-called "adults". Keep practicing Alden and hand those old farts their butts one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 USPSA, as an organization, has no minimum age limit for competitors. The MD should have taken the time to observe your son, and allowed him to shoot. If he's already competing in other sports, there is no reason to not allow him to compete at an IPSC/USPSA match. I know here we'd have just made sure an experienced RO watched him for a while and that you were going to accompany him all day. End of story. I'm not a BOD member or anything, but I am an NROI Instructor and a Life member, and I'll apologize for the organization--that should never have happened. Alden, hang in there, and keep shooting. Good luck. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 If you are a card-carrying USPSA member, a USPSA club can't deny your entry into the match (unless you're drunk or something like that). If you are not a USPSA member, a USPSA club will likely require some kind of vetting, perhaps that club's own new shooter class. You could be the IPSC/Steel Challenge/ICORE/Bianchi world champion but that might not satisfy the club's requirements. It might have more to do with liability than safety. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. And I was 29 years old, so it wasn't youth discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Sorry, that you had a problem. I don't have my Front Sight at home, it's at work, but if you have one handy write the guy that writes the Junior articles and ask him what's appropriate. Congrats on taking the time to do things with you son, sounds like you and your son will have a good time together when you find the right club. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 At the time I was told that to shoot one of his matches you have to either attend his annual new shooters seminar or take the long drive down to Old Bridge for a match. It po'd me to the point where I haven't bothered to go back. Doh. Well, you should have taken the long drive to Old Bridge, you would have had fun and we ran you through a quick safety check. One day soon Vlad. It is a bit of a haul but I have been looking forward to shooting a different sport. The funny thing is that some of the guys that I SO at IDPA matches also shoot at your matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 BTW, you guys have to check out Dave's website! Dave, you zen shooting in that pic? Hate to hear what happened today. I hope you do not have to go through another situation like this. Take care, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Does this make me want to give up my membership to USPSA? Yes, but as I hope this isn’t the normal treatment that the junior shooters are afforded elsewhere, I will remain a member as well as making my son a member to be able to shoot in the larger matches. Dave, as you have been correctly informed by the other folks here, this is not a USPSA problem, it's a problem with that particular club. I'm happy to say that my son Sam (now 12) and I have shot USPSA matches together in 8 or 10 different states over the past year and a half, and have never experienced anything like that. At this point, with a bunch of state/sectionals, an area match, and a USPSA Nationals under his belt, I think I would react pretty strongly if anybody tried to arbitrarily deny him entry at a USPSA match. We look forward to shooting with you and Alden somewhere! Great to hear about another competent young shooter! If you guys are ICORE shooters also, consider Bud Bond's Rocky Mountain Regional ICORE Championship in Ft. Collins this spring. Bud really goes out of his way to get young shooters to his match. If the plans work out, there will be three of us dads bringing our boys (all about the same age as Alden) to Bud's match from Iowa in '06! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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