Reload Time Improvement

[ParaJoe]

Here's the deal. I have consistent standing reload times of 1.60 to 1.70 seconds. These are with A zone shots and since A's are all that matters that's all I record. I've been sitting on this time for about 2 months and can't seem to get any faster. When I dry fire doing the Matt Burkett reload drill from Steve's book I am comfortable having the par time at .8 seconds. It doesn't seem hard but in live fire I just can't seem to get myself relaxed enough or focused. Can someone give me some direction here? It seems as if I should be seeing improvement but I'm just falling short somewhere.

JOe

[Merlin Orr]

Here's the deal. I have consistent standing reload times of 1.60 to 1.70 seconds. These are with A zone shots and since A's are all that matters that's all I record. I've been sitting on this time for about 2 months and can't seem to get any faster. When I dry fire doing the Matt Burkett reload drill from Steve's book I am comfortable having the par time at .8 seconds. It doesn't seem hard but in live fire I just can't seem to get myself relaxed enough or focused. Can someone give me some direction here? It seems as if I should be seeing improvement but I'm just falling short somewhere.

JOe

Do both with a video camera running and look....?

[dirtypool40]

Couple of qustions:

1. Are you making a .8 second "point to point" time in dry fire?

2. Are you using a Para?

For me a para is about the hardest beast out there to load at any speed and has only increase my awe of guys like TJ.

As to the dry fire time; If you are pointing the gun, reacting to the beep, reloading and pointing the gun again in .80 that is SMOKIN' fast and yes you have a problem with live fire.

General help (although I can't make a .8 dry fire time). For me when I went looking for time suckage in my reloads, most of it was in the left hand. I went from 1.6 average to down around a second with standard legal gear. It took some dry fire and analysis of what was happening and where the hold up was.

Snapping you vision back to the magwell so you are WAITING to seat the new one helps, but getting that left hand off the gun and down to your belt ASAP seems to be where I gained the most time. A quick but GOOD grab, and the rest seems almost in slow mo.

hope that helps.

[Crusher]

Like Merlin said use vids of both to SEE if there is a diffrence in tech for live fire.

I find I must work a long time in dry fire mode, before my sub begins to picks up on it and I can then do it live fire then some more time at both and it's on auto pilot. Thats when stuff starts gettin interesting.

Heck you have half the battle allready if you can dry fire .8 reloads with good sight calls.

[ParaJoe]

Couple of qustions:

1. Are you making a .8 second "point to point" time in dry fire?

2. Are you using a Para?

For me a para is about the hardest beast out there to load at any speed and has only increase my awe of guys like TJ.

As to the dry fire time; If you are pointing the gun, reacting to the beep, reloading and pointing the gun again in .80 that is SMOKIN' fast and yes you have a problem with live fire.

General help (although I can't make a .8 dry fire time). For me when I went looking for time suckage in my reloads, most of it was in the left hand. I went from 1.6 average to down around a second with standard legal gear. It took some dry fire and analysis of what was happening and where the hold up was.

Snapping you vision back to the magwell so you are WAITING to seat the new one helps, but getting that left hand off the gun and down to your belt ASAP seems to be where I gained the most time. A quick but GOOD grab, and the rest seems almost in slow mo.

hope that helps.

DP

I'm not making a .8 second point to point, just point, beep, grab new mag and bring it up to the edge of the magwell. Yes, I am using a Para, without a magwell, and I'm shooting L-10 so this only adds to the importance of getting the reload nailed. I'll work on getting the left hand down faster to the new mag and getting a GOOD grab on it.

Merlin

Breaking out the camera here. I'll do this tonight and then head out to the range tomorrow and see what I come up with.

Crusher

Your probably right about burning it in. More practice.

Thanks folks, I'll keep working at it.

JOe

[Clay1]

I'm with DirtyPool on this one. Even though I move both hands at the same time, I cut substaintial time off of my reloads by focusing on moving the weak hand at the last shot. I'm just a C class shooter so take this advice with this in mind. We shoot a training type of league on Tuesday mornings and keep of log of basic times. Last Tuesday the fastest reload that I did was a 1.12 with an Aver closer to 1.25.

One thing besides the focus on moving the weak hand has helped me and that is practicing at what I call 1/3 speed. I use to practice all of my reloads at full speed. In Saul Kirsch's newest book he speaks about training precise movements at a slower speed doing everything perfectly and then working up to a FEW reps at full speed. He says that by training at full speed all of the time you have some sloppiness built into your technique and by doing some dryfiring and some precise slower movements you are training your subconscious the proper way to do a perfect reload.

One last comment and that is if you believe that you can't go faster than 1.6 guess what? You won't go faster than 1.6. So by seeing yourself do reloads in your minds eye (visualization) much faster, you will open yourself up to performing faster. You have to believe. Sounds like mumbo jumbo I know, but after Sauls books and just about finished with Winning in Mind by Lanny Bassham and these two books are going to be the key for me making the next big break in my shooting development.

[diehli]

Joe, for starters, I'd guess you aren't getting off the sights after the shot and getting your thumb on to the button in live fire. Further, reestablishing the sight picture is going to add a good deal more time to the .8 par time you have set. I'd guess if you did full on reload drills, your par time might be ~1.2-ish.

I know, for me, that getting the actual reload done isn't the hard/slow part, it's reestablishing my sight picture that adds a bunch of time, particularly with iron sights.

[John Dunn]

What range are you shooting? 1.6 at 25 is pretty good, 1.6 at 5 needs work.

People will mock me (mock away mockers!) and say you can train to do a nonmagwell reload as fast as a magwell reload, and they'll say they can do a single stack reload as fast as double stack reload, and they'll probably say they can reload a revolver faster than an auto (the mockers are all arrogant like that! ). But I say, why make it harder than it has to be? Stick a magwell on there.

Then work on the mag hand, as above. You might also try doing some at warp speed, just to get that feel, and some confidence in your raw speed, then refine so you can get your hits.

Finally, my coach Robin tells me to keep the gun up during the reload, that discovery saved me tons of time.

[XRe]

Are you *only* doing the Burkett drill in dry fire? I'm shooting a single stack (with an S&A) - also an intolerant beast on the reloads. I break my reloads down into different steps in practice.

- no gun - left hand only - mime pointing gun, left hand grabs mag and brings back to right hand (from T_T)

- strong hand drill - left hand drops away as you hit the button, and position the gun properly with the strong hand

- Burkett drills two ways - one, with mag already in left hand, held low, and normal with mag in pouch

- mag insert drill - basically, gun in strong hand pointed at target, mag in left hand low. Seat the mag.

- full blown reloads

If you're not dropping mags in the reloads (ala Steve Anderson), do them sometimes. It will change your sensory inputs during the reload to have the mag drop out. Until you get used to it, might be best to drop mags and pick them up.

If you can do them in front of a mirror - especially the broken down ones - you can check your positioning, etc. Maybe find GM who you want to look like, and use video of them to compare.

You may have to experiment with where to bring the gun. I actually move mine down just a little bit - maybe an inch. Everything seems to happen more naturally in that spot for me. In general, though, you want it in front of your face for best speed and consistency.

[mike4045]

It took a long time for me to get used to a Para without a magwell. Eventually I got used to it. I finally got my reloads down to 1.1 to 1.25.

Lots of practice. I tried them in slow motion to make sure I had the right tech. Then went to about half speed. And finally full speed. I would do 10 to 15 reps at each speed. I was doing this 5 days a week, several times a day.

It doesn't matter what I shoot now the reload just comes naturally. I always practiced dropping the mags at the beep. The good thing for me is my 2 yr old picks up the mags so I don't have to. I actually prefer a gun without a magwell, or a very small magwell.

Mike

[Clay1]

On doing reloads at the buzzer, one note is to initiate action at the start of the buzzer. There is no need to wait until the tone has completed to start. If focus is placed at movement at the very beginning of the tone this can help.

On dropping the mags; I stand at the end of the couch and do them so when I drop a mag it just drops onto the couch and I don't have to bend all the way to the floor to pick them up. Works for me.

[sfinney]

I have to second that a Para is harder to reload.... square mag in square hole, without a lot of slop - ESPECIALLY without a magwell. I know practice is the main cure, but consider using a magwell? It will help some.

[Rockclimbg]

I knocked about .5 sec off my reload by moving my left hand to the mag the instant the shot was called. It's a little change of focus that seemed to help my reloads.

YMMV.

Rockclimbg

[ParaJoe]

Holy crap that's a lot of repsonses!!! About the magwell, I can't seem to find one that I won't have to modify the gun to use, and I don't want to have to spend 70+ bucks a mag. A friend let me shoot his 16.40 with a magwell and all the kickass magazines last match and I will admit, reloading was a lot easier. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. Here's what I found dry firing in front of the camera. I'm slow. At everything. I suppose it's wanting it to be smooth, but everything is slow. Everything y'all mentioned is the problem. So I took my time and broke it down into sections and am noticing improvement. I also caught myself not slaving the eyes to the magwell and looking for the mag. Then I'd have to find the hole again.

XRE, When I dry fire I start with the first fourteen in Steve's book and then pick some throughout the rest of the book at random. I tried what you said and it seems to be working for me. When I'm doing Steve's drills, I drop the mags on the last two "reps" of each par time so that I can retain the feel and inputs that the gun is giving me. Also, I think I have downloaded just about all of the videos that I can find on the internet and watched them all in anticipatio.

Rockclimbg, I had to tell myself to get to it. Get moving pokey.

John, when I practice the drills in live fire everything is at 10 yards. I have found that most of the matches that I have attended locally everything is within 1-15 yards so ten just seemed right to practice at.

I'll be stepping up my dry firing routine for the next two weeks until the Area 2 Match in Arizona so hopefully I will be able to drop some time off of this. Well, it's back to work. Does anyone know of a cheap(free) video hosting site? Then I can post the video and get some feedback. Thanks again, JOe

[Scout454]

Get a Dawson ICE for your Para. Don't believe the frame has to be cut.

Ed Brown makes a drop on too.

[Intel6]

I'll be stepping up my dry firing routine for the next two weeks until the Area 2 Match in Arizona so hopefully I will be able to drop some time off of this.

Thanks again, JOe

You to huh?

I am doing the same

Neal in AZ

Edited October 31, 2005 by Intel6

[diehli]

Joe, Dawson makes basepads that'd run you $24.99 a piece (rather than $70): http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootings...em=67&mitem=319

I know that there's some company out there that makes Al replacements for the plastic parts as well as extensions for them, but I can't remember the name... I think it's based in Canada.

Figuring on 5 mags, you'd be looking at ~$205 for an ICE magwell and basepads from Dawson.

Edited November 1, 2005 by 300lbGorilla

[ParaJoe]

Joe, Dawson makes basepads that'd run you $24.99 a piece (rather than $70): http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootings...em=67&mitem=319

I know that there's some company out there that makes Al replacements for the plastic parts as well as extensions for them, but I can't remember the name... I think it's based in Canada.

Figuring on 5 mags, you'd be looking at ~$205 for an ICE magwell and basepads from Dawson.

That's a pretty nifty thing they have there but here's my dilemma. I don't have all Para mag tubes. Mine are all Mec-Gar mags. The bottoms of them look different from factory Para tubes. So far I'm up to about 380 to convert. This is the new tubes from Para Pro shop and the mag guts from Arredondo and then the mag well from Dawson. 5 mags ready to go.

JOe

[mcoliver]

Are you dry firing with a fully-loaded mag (with dummy rounds)? If not, you should.

Edited November 1, 2005 by mcoliver

[Loves2Shoot]

After reloading my XD about a billion times, I realized how overated magwells are. They help you be lazy, but use good form and you should be ok.

Just something to think about, but be careful when you are dryfiring to really grip the gun. Tension causes you to slow down, when you know the gun won't go bang, you tend to relax and you can move quicker, this gives you a false send of your "real" speed.

Good luck and keep at it, getting a 1 second repeatable reload isn't easy.

[ParaJoe]

Are you dry firing with a fully-loaded mag (with dummy rounds)? If not, you should.

I've been using a full weight mag the whole time. It really sucks when your not paying attention and drop that one on your foot.

L2S, I figured out by watching the video that I'm tense during the reload. Which, from what I've read on here and in books, is where I shouldn't be. I try to stay relaxed but firm when practicing transitions and the like.

JOe

[kevin c]

Just something to think about, but be careful when you are dryfiring to really grip the gun. Tension causes you to slow down, when you know the gun won't go bang, you tend to relax and you can move quicker, this gives you a false send of your "real" speed.

I am no great shakes when it comes to reloads, but I actually find that keeping a gorilla grip on the gun w/ the strong hand really binds up the reload. I don't want to have the gun flopping around at the other extreme, but a supple wrist helps me get the mag in if my approach with the mag isn't dead on. Just enough grip pressure to get the magwell to and stable at the point where I want to hit it w/ the mag is what works for me.

fwiw

Kevin

Edited November 2, 2005 by kevin c

[Loves2Shoot]

I am no great shakes when it comes to reloads, but I actually find that keeping a gorilla grip on the gun w/ the strong hand really binds up the reload. I don't want to have the gun flopping around at the other extreme, but a supple wrist helps me get the mag in if my approach with the mag isn't dead on. Just enough grip pressure to get the magwell to and stable at the point where I want to hit it w/ the mag is what works for me.

fwiw

Kevin

When you are shooting for real you need to have a firm grip before and after the reload. When the gun isn't going bang it is easy to forget this and to have a looser grip than you would if it is going bang, that can cause problems. Does that make more sense? A strong grip during the reload isn't needed.

[kevin c]

When you are shooting for real you need to have a firm grip before and after the reload. When the gun isn't going bang it is easy to forget this and to have a looser grip than you would if it is going bang, that can cause problems. Does that make more sense? A strong grip during the reload isn't needed.

Sounds very sensible to me!

Another thing I try not to forget is that the recoil impulse of a real shot is going to move the gun, and therefore cause different muscle tension and positioning of the gun than what dry fire will do (regardless of my grip), so that since I am starting the reload from a different position and with different tension in my arms and hands, my "programmed in" dryfire reload may not go to plan.

Of course, just about any reload in a COF other than a standing one in a classifier or blown field course is going to vary from any single practice starting position. If not, we all eventually could get to the point of doing reloads with our eyes closed (even I can, if I'm not moving, and have worked at it).

All the more reason to look the reload in, and to practice live fire.

Kevin C

Edited November 2, 2005 by kevin c

[ParaJoe]

Well I went to the range today for some live fire practice after a week of dry firing. I dropped 2 tenths off of my reload time. 1.6 average to 1.4. It was nice to look through the timer and find that my reloads were where I wanted them to be. Now off to work on the 1.2's. Thanks for all the tips and help getting my time down.

JOe