Sean Gaines Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I recently shot a match, and had a friend video the match. I noticed at 1/8 the speed that when shooting an array of 4 targets that my gun would shoot and lift up and down and I would shoot again and the gun would lift up and then down and then my gun would drive to the next target and do the same thing. But my question is: Is that the correct way? Or should it be the gun lifts and comes down then I shoot the next shot the gun lifts and instead of comming down on the same target, shoot the second shot and while the gun is recoiling driving the gun to the next target before the gun comes down, or at least get the gun moving that direction? or is that impossible because of the speed of the gun cycling or am I just splitting hairs? Just curious to hear what you seasoned pros have to say. I guess if I didnt explain myself correctly maybe this will help 1)gun fires, gun lifts up, then down, shoot the second shot gun lifts and comes down on the same target, then drive the gun to the second target is that correct way? OR 2)gun fires, gun lifts up, then down, shoot the second shot gun lifts and instead of going to the same target drive it to the second target while recoil is happen. is that correct way? Has anyone else gave this much thought or have practiced it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Ideally, following the second shot on the first target, the gun would already be moving to the next target - #2. The way this works is that you've called the second shot on the target, and your eyes immediately snap to and pick up the next target - and you consequently drive the gun over there immediately after you break the 2nd shot on the first target. Depending on your current skill level, you may or may not be able to see that happen clearly on video, though. That is, it might appear that the gun has come back down on on the first target after the 2nd shot, but your eyes have already moved on - just you're not quick enough to move the gun before it's returned itself to shooting position on the first target. If you watch the top dogs on video, you can definitely see it happen, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
standles Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 For me it is (2 shots on tgt 1 then 2 shots on tgt 2) gun fires.. lifts.. settles on same target fires ... starts to lift.. eyes snap to next target and look at exact spot I want to shoot.... While gun is coming down from previous shot ..drives sights to location of eyes on next target. fires... repeat for any additional targets. I try my best to call shots and if you can do this then it is better to drive on to the next target. There is no reason to realign your sights on a target you are finished engaging. (assuming no makeup shots). Later, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 (edited) . I think the video your eyes have recorded is what maters most. Did the camera get the same recording your brain did? Maybe "Shred" will post in tonight he seams to have learnning from the video down pretty good. Edited October 27, 2005 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I'm still trying to figure out the whole "calling your shots" thing, but, my (novice) understanding is that watching how your sights lift (in addition to where the sights were when the shot broke, what your grip was like, and the quality of your trigger pull) is a part of calling the shot. So how quickly can you assess the sight lift (as a part of calling your shot), move your eyes to the next target (because you determined that the last shot was good) and then get the gun moving to the next target? Does trying to drive the gun to the next target lead to faulty follow through and those dreaded, nasty transitional mikes? No answers, just more questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Hmm.. I haven't done a lot of slo-mo on my transitions lately, but while some of the top shooters say that using the recoil to hop over to the next target is faster, some of them say it's not worth it, especially if you don't have a very highly developed shot calling skill. They say you really want to see your sights lift and return. Since a 1911 cycles in around 0.06, it would take almost ten targets all in a row to even save 1/2 a second, so it's definately not where most people need to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 My take on seeing the lift, and return. Where it is, when it begins to lift, is everything in calling the shot. At least in a pistol, that is where the bullet is going. Where it goes, and how it comes back, is all about the next shot. you could be moving while shooting and see the sight lift from a certain spot, then step in a hole and see it go everywhere. Thats enough to call the shot. You've got to see it, and trust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 (edited) Try to video the best shooter you know and watch his pistol in slow motion. The reason I say this is because I've looked for the same thing while watching some of the top 20 in the nation on video. For the most part, the gun stops, and stays stopped while the slide closes on the last shot, and then transitions. They're just freakin' fast . edited to remove the word "the" in the wrong place. Stupid new edit crap! Edited October 28, 2005 by JD45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 I use recoil-assisted-transitioning (ahem) only at short range at extreme speed when my vision is working great and I'm seeing things and calling the shots. I also tend to do it much more often on short-range steel (10-12 yards). It's something I noticed on video and rarely notice when shooting. Well, I notice it a little more on steel. I think it would be folly to try to implement it as a technique. It's just a byproduct of aggressive transitioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 It depends.? It seems to me that most of "Snapping to the next target, and then moving the gun there" is actually Mental. It seems more about "Mentally" processing the shot, accepting or rectifying that shot and forgetting about it. THEN Moving to the next target, keeping your concentration on the the present target. Depending on the Target exposure, distance and/or props you may be able to use recoil to drive the gun, or not. The important thing is to "Drive the Mind to the Next Shot". If you think about it as you're doing it, you're probably losing time. At the top levels I would surmise the color of ones' shoelaces can be important, if it affects the competitors mental state. At the top level it is so tight (other than Revolver and Production where us mortals haven't figured out that gods do roam the earth!) that anything can help/hurt. But, for most of us it's more about being able to let ourselves perform. Pushing too hard only hurts. More importantly "HAVE FUN!" Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 28, 2005 Share Posted October 28, 2005 Erik's post reminded me the on steel-challenge courses with close plates, I do drive the dot to the next target before it returns, while on longer ones I'll stick with more follow-through. I don't intentionally do that, it's a side-effect of what it takes to make the shot. Wow, who'da thunk it? "do what you need to do to make the shot" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 When watching the sights you should see them lift then snap your eyes to the next target, i do not believe it is physically possible to get the gun into motion without effecing the shot before it has finished recoiling. By the time you see the sight lift the bullet is on its way in the intended path. Move your eyes to the next target and let the gun follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 (edited) Think I have to disagree with Shred on this one. Kay has made me a believer in faster transitions - i.e. driving the gun to the next target (recoil assisted as Erik says) after you call the shot and the sights (or dot) lifts. If you have .20 splits on a target but .26 splits between targets, over a 30 round course that's 9/10 of a second. Against a hit factor of 10, the added second puts you at 9.375hf or 10 match points. Add that up over 10-12 stages, you can see a difference of 100 match points (if you shot consistently - 'course consistency is a whole subject itself). Edited October 30, 2005 by carinab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Aren't a lot of you saying the same thing? Just varying the amount of "follow-thru" you are applying to shot calling? PAPER KILLER, are you calling the shot (do you know where each bullet will land...before it gets there...from reading the orientation of youg gun/sights)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted October 30, 2005 Author Share Posted October 30, 2005 When watching the sights you should see them lift then snap your eyes to the next target, i do not believe it is physically possible to get the gun into motion without effecing the shot before it has finished recoiling. By the time you see the sight lift the bullet is on its way in the intended path. Move your eyes to the next target and let the gun follow. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and oppinions on this topic. I hope this thread helps all who reads it. After giving it some thought it almost seems impossible to move the gun over to a target that is 1 yard apart shoulder to shoulder shooting freestyle while the gun is recoiling. Most good reaction times to an outside stimulus are .20 or below. and we are talking about a gun that is cycling at .05 of a second. I doubt that any of us have superman reaction times to be able to react in that fast of a time. I believe that moving your eyes to the next target would be faster, since your eyes are faster than your hands, and your gun is going to go where your eyes go(for people who have developed this skill). When I started the post I was talking about transitions from 1 target to the next, shoulder to shoulder, about 1 yard apart. Now I do believe that if the targets are stacked on top of each other, or overlapping that it is possible to let the recoil carry you up to the next target. shooting freestyle. and if you are shooting week hand or strong hand that you can let the recoil carry you over to the next target, shoulder to shoulder type scenarios. The reason I say this is becuase the gun is going that direction to begin with when the shot has been fired. So in conclusion: In order to speed up transitions, the key would be to move the eyes before moving the gun. But it has to be a subconcious, muscle memory type event. Thinking about it only leads to slower times. Not fact, Just my oppinion, take it with grain of salt, or apply it to your practice regimen. See what works for you and do it. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorch Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Got to go with carina on this one. Seems that riding the recoil over is more accurate also because you are basiclly comming down into the A zone from the next target with 11 inches to stop the gun for an A hit as to moving it from the side to side you only have about 6 inches and over swing with a heavy fully loaded gun is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Think I have to disagree with Shred on this one. Kay has made me a believer in faster transitions - i.e. driving the gun to the next target (recoil assisted as Erik says) after you call the shot and the sights (or dot) lifts. If you have .20 splits on a target but .26 splits between targets, over a 30 round course that's 9/10 of a second. Against a hit factor of 10, the added second puts you at 9.375hf or 10 match points. Add that up over 10-12 stages, you can see a difference of 100 match points (if you shot consistently - 'course consistency is a whole subject itself). Hmm.. If you can kick .20 transitions on a typical IPSC stage, I'm impressed. You're also assuming that all the targets are in a line.. TJ disagreed about the need for recoil-assist last time I took his class. I'm not disagreeing about the importance of transitions, but only about how vital skipping the sight return is. Shooting Limited or Desert Eagle or something with a kick, it may be more useful to transition while recovering, but it's still an advanced technique. Scorch, coming down on a target is about the worst direction to approach it from.. Your hands and gun block your view of where you're going. This is the beginner area too.. and as such I believe new shooters are better served making good shots with perhaps a tad of extra follow-through than trying to squeeze the time equivalent of something between a quarter and an eighth of a point out, given typical beginner HFs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorch Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 (edited) As said earlier you are already looking at the spot on the target you want to hit and waiting (ever so Shortly) for the gun sights to apear there. I am not taking about coming down trough the whole target, just over, off the recoil (bounce) to the spot your looking at. Hands should not be covering that spot. With all that said my transistion need work also and that is why i am reading this thread. Edited October 31, 2005 by scorch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 (edited) 2)gun fires, gun lifts up, then down, shoot the second shot gun lifts and instead of going to the same target drive it to the second target while recoil is happen. is that correct way? I think this is closer to the process I use, but not quite the same. Each shot is individual. After each shot you have a transition. When your next shot is at the same target you are transitioning to the same target. If your next shot is at a different target you are transitioning to it. Naturally, it's easier to transition to the same target because you don't have to snap your eyes to it. Shooting steel is the easier thing to visualize this on. If you called the shot a miss then you don't transition to the next steel yet because your next shot needs to be at the same steel. Same thing with paper. If you called your first shot a miss, it's easy because you're already transitioning to the same target anyway. If you called the second shot a miss, don't transition to the next target because you still have to make that shot. I can't remember who said it or where I read it, but if I remember correctly driving the gun on every shot is important. ... I guess what I'm trying to say is transition to the next shot no matter where it is as quickly as you can as soon as you call the shot. It's the same action, it just looks different because not all transitions are created equal. Edited October 31, 2005 by short_round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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