PCC handling ?

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

In 3g with staged guns you do not remove the staged gun(s) prior to RO direction.
Most PCC users in my limited experience stay at the staging table until the RO directs them. In general because the RO is waiting for the stage reset to be complete. 
 

7.1.1 quote....”closely monitors”..... pretty much proves my point. 

 

Like I said, you can range lawyer it all you want with the MD/RM after I DQ you.

[bcane98]

6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

If you do anything other than take the gun out of the bag and bring it to the starting position before I tell you to make ready I will disqualify you.

 

You can play range lawyer with the RM.

Oh I have had discussions with many RM’s, CRO’s, GM’s, and shooters in general and I’ve had no problem convincing range leadership that certain RO’s like you and the Sarge let a position of authority go to your head.  Y’all start having a bad day or whatever sets you off, and then you break out the magnifying glass so you can dig deeper into “your understanding” of the rule book.  Again, you both need to stop reading for a response only, and look at the definition of supervision.  As the RO I do not need to hold your hand from the berm or the safe area to have control of what’s going on in the bay or with the squad... simply leave the chamber flag in your PCC while your moving safely with your firearm pointed in a safe direction (normally up) to the start position.  Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.  Y’all are seriously acting like the soft spots on an Apple of this sport... 

[SGT_Schultz]

7 minutes ago, bcane98 said:

Oh I have had discussions with many RM’s, CRO’s, GM’s, and shooters in general and I’ve had no problem convincing range leadership that certain RO’s like you and the Sarge let a position of authority go to your head.  Y’all start having a bad day or whatever sets you off, and then you break out the magnifying glass so you can dig deeper into “your understanding” of the rule book.  Again, you both need to stop reading for a response only, and look at the definition of supervision.  As the RO I do not need to hold your hand from the berm or the safe area to have control of what’s going on in the bay or with the squad... simply leave the chamber flag in your PCC while your moving safely with your firearm pointed in a safe direction (normally up) to the start position.  Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.  Y’all are seriously acting like the soft spots on an Apple of this sport... 

 

I don't need your advice on how to run my squad or how to be a range officer.

 

Sarge doesn't either.

[bcane98]

Just now, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I don't need your advice on how to run my squad or how to be a range officer.

 

Sarge doesn't either.

 

Well... at least we agree on one thing  Be safe gent’s, have fun, and good luck during your matches  

[Sarge]

13 minutes ago, bcane98 said:

Oh I have had discussions with many RM’s, CRO’s, GM’s, and shooters in general and I’ve had no problem convincing range leadership that certain RO’s like you and the Sarge let a position of authority go to your head.  Y’all start having a bad day or whatever sets you off, and then you break out the magnifying glass so you can dig deeper into “your understanding” of the rule book.  Again, you both need to stop reading for a response only, and look at the definition of supervision.  As the RO I do not need to hold your hand from the berm or the safe area to have control of what’s going on in the bay or with the squad... simply leave the chamber flag in your PCC while your moving safely with your firearm pointed in a safe direction (normally up) to the start position.  Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.  Y’all are seriously acting like the soft spots on an Apple of this sport... 

YOU convinced RM's that certain RO's let authority go to their head? I challenge you to ask any RM or RMI if Kevin Sanders CRO FY64885, aka me, is one of those. Or if I will allow any RO to act like that if I'm running a match. While you are at it ask them what I do if an RO doesn't follow the rules.

[bcane98]

12 minutes ago, Sarge said:

YOU convinced RM's that certain RO's let authority go to their head? I challenge you to ask any RM or RMI if Kevin Sanders CRO FY64885, aka me, is one of those. Or if I will allow any RO to act like that if I'm running a match. While you are at it ask them what I do if an RO doesn't follow the rules.

You have yet to show let alone prove that extending a stock or turning an optic on is grounds for a DQ other than your interpretation... and you wonder why it would be easy to convince range leadership that an RO is letting authority go to their head.  You make it too easy  

[bcane98]

22 minutes ago, Sarge said:

YOU convinced RM's that certain RO's let authority go to their head? I challenge you to ask any RM or RMI if Kevin Sanders CRO FY64885, aka me, is one of those. Or if I will allow any RO to act like that if I'm running a match. While you are at it ask them what I do if an RO doesn't follow the rules.

Unless of course you actually write that into your stage briefs IAW 8.3.1 ... then, and only then I would agree it is a DQ.  But we all know nobody writes stage briefs to that level of detail.  God only know how many times I’ve been counseled about having too much detail in my stage briefs rofl... it seems I learn something new each time I write them... too much, not enough, so I have accepted I cannot make every shooter happy  

[IVC]

2 hours ago, bcane98 said:

 Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.

Actually it does, in 10.5.19:

 

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.

 

It specifically forbids turning the dot, and it clearly shows that ANY handling is a grounds for DQ. I don't have a dog in this fight, but if we are to quote rules we do have to be at least correct in what the rules say... 

[IVC]

We can argue whether the rule 10.5.19 actually forbids anything beyond muzzle direction, but I would say that the plain reading explicitly forbids gun handling. Am I wrong? 

[bcane98]

6 hours ago, IVC said:

We can argue whether the rule 10.5.19 actually forbids anything beyond muzzle direction, but I would say that the plain reading explicitly forbids gun handling. Am I wrong? 

 

"All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer"

 

The word "or" is used to link alternatives...  This rules allows other options while under the direct supervision of the RO... I go back to my previous input regarding 8.3.1 ... unless it is specifically written in the stage briefs that all manipulation will "only" be done in the safe area or after the "make ready" it's still not a blatant DQ.   

 

IVC, you are reading to reply, and failing to understand the full context of the rule  Obviously SGT, Sarge , and I interpret these rules a little different from each other, but nothing directly states that turning a dot on or stock being extended must only be done at a specific area or after a command of make ready.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, bcane98 said:

 

"All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer"

 

The word "or" is used to link alternatives...  This rules allows other options while under the direct supervision of the RO... I go back to my previous input regarding 8.3.1 ... unless it is specifically written in the stage briefs that all manipulation will "only" be done in the safe area or after the "make ready" it's still not a blatant DQ.   

 

IVC, you are reading to reply, and failing to understand the full context of the rule  Obviously SGT, Sarge , and I interpret these rules a little different from each other, but nothing directly states that turning a dot on or stock being extended must only be done at a specific area or after a command of make ready.

Easiest thing for you to do is email Troy and ask him to define “under the direct supervision of an RO”. My money is on him answering, “after make ready”.

[driver8M3]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Easiest thing for you to do is email Troy and ask him to define “under the direct supervision of an RO”. My money is on him answering, “after make ready”.

10.5.1 provides a clue to what Troy might say.

[IVC]

2 hours ago, bcane98 said:

This rules allows other options while under the direct supervision of the RO...

Correct, but "direct supervision" means that the RO is telling the shooter to do it, not merely that he is catching with the corner of his eye what's going on and choosing to ignore it. 

 

To read it as "one can do it as long as there is an RO in the vicinity" would mean that "it is allowed" since there are always ROs in the area, which in turn would mean that the rule 10.5.19 is there for decoration since the verbiage would never apply. 

 

Or, to put it differently, how would *you* (personally) apply 10.5.19? At what point would you apply this rule and for what type of violation? Notice that the rule addresses turning the dot on/off *exactly the same* as, e.g., taking a sight picture, so anything you say about the dot applies to the sight picture as well...

[IVC]

I don't mind arguing whether the dot manipulation should be allowed, but that's a different discussion from whether the dot manipulation is currently allowed. 

[IVC]

And for the record, I don't think turning the dot should be allowed. It's in the same category as dealing with dummy rounds at the safety area - not unsafe per se, but can lead to potential safety issues so it's a good safety layer. 

 

If people can turn dots on/off at the berm, it is natural to start peeking at the sight to make sure the dot is on and to adjust brightness, which now becomes taking a sight picture, which promotes the berms to safety areas, which in turn would create a push for open shooters to do the same, then everyone else...

 

What's wrong with turning the dot on at the line after "make ready?" You can't peek at the sight while at the berm, so there is no difference, right? 

[bcane98]

I am merely playing devils advocate for information and educational purposes of course, and I'm sure many of you have taken this opportunity to looked through the rule book regarding everything that has been said.  Simply put, this is good conversation, and that should always be the main purpose. 

 

My PCC is extended and the dot is on well before the match begins, and it stays like that for the duration of the match. Why, because I have had, seen, and heard this conversation at a match, and to eliminate any future issue I simply have it setup like this to avoid conflicts with any staff members... I've seen shooter's lose these battle more often than I have seen them win.  Where we run into issues is when we start interjecting things like IVC said "it is natural to start peeking at the sight to make sure the dot is on..." I mostly agree with you because it does lead to the firearm being pointed in an unsafe direction which would typically not be down range.  I get it, and I agree that would make for unsafe firearms handling and warrant a DQ, but we need to give people the opportunity to succeed before immediately assuming everyone will be unsafe pushing a button or extending a stock.  

 

I read back through this post because it is getting fairly lengthy...  I agree with everyone regarding firearm and shooter safety, I agree that new shooters may need a a helping hand regarding firearm safety and what could happen "if...", seasoned shooters should know the rules fairly well, and common sense is not a super power like many people say it is... sometimes shooters don't think things through all the way cause we weren't paying attention or whatever a persons excuse might be. 

 

FINAL THOUGHTS...  

An RO's job is a very stressful one, the RO should always keep the environment as stress free as possible, and shooters should be doing their best to help out as well.  

[SGT_Schultz]

13 hours ago, bcane98 said:

You have yet to show let alone prove that extending a stock or turning an optic on is grounds for a DQ other than your interpretation... and you wonder why it would be easy to convince range leadership that an RO is letting authority go to their head.  You make it too easy  

8.2.1, 8.2.2, 8.3.1, and 8.3.8 all make it clear that a shooter comes under RO supervision when the RO commands "make ready" and ceases to be under that same supervision when the RO states "range is clear".

 

10.5.19 makes it clear that doing ANYTHING other than uncasing or removing a PCC from its conveyance is a DQ unless you do so at the safe area or between make ready and range is clear (RO supervision).

 

It's very troubling that you choose to ignore the clear rules against unsafe gun handling because you disagree with how they're written.

 

What else do you let slide?

[ltdmstr]

14 hours ago, bcane98 said:

Oh I have had discussions with many RM’s, CRO’s, GM’s, and shooters in general and I’ve had no problem convincing range leadership that certain RO’s like you and the Sarge let a position of authority go to your head.  Y’all start having a bad day or whatever sets you off, and then you break out the magnifying glass so you can dig deeper into “your understanding” of the rule book.  Again, you both need to stop reading for a response only, and look at the definition of supervision.  As the RO I do not need to hold your hand from the berm or the safe area to have control of what’s going on in the bay or with the squad... simply leave the chamber flag in your PCC while your moving safely with your firearm pointed in a safe direction (normally up) to the start position.  Nowhere does it say in the rule book that extending a stock or pushing a button (or switch) is grounds for DQ prior to the make ready command.  Y’all are seriously acting like the soft spots on an Apple of this sport... 

 

Wow!  Arguing about the rules with a couple of people who probably know more about them and how they're applied than you ever will.  And adding insults just because they've attempted to correct your mistaken interpretation.  That's pretty bold.  I'm sure if you put your words into action, you can test it for real life and see how it goes.  Good luck with that.

[bcane98]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

8.2.1, 8.2.2, 8.3.1, and 8.3.8 all make it clear that a shooter comes under RO supervision when the RO commands "make ready" and ceases to be under that same supervision when the RO states "range is clear".

 

10.5.19 makes it clear that doing ANYTHING other than uncasing or removing a PCC from its conveyance is a DQ unless you do so at the safe area or between make ready and range is clear (RO supervision).

 

It's very troubling that you choose to ignore the clear rules against unsafe gun handling because you disagree with how they're written.

 

What else do you let slide?

8.2.1 The firearm is prepared as specified in the written stage briefing and is in compliance with the requirements of the relevant Division.   

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing... 

8.3 Range Communication... "The approved range commands and their sequence are as follows:" discussed already, basically discussing Communication, and refers to Written Stage Briefs as well.

10.5.19... refer to the conversation above.

 

In the best interest of safety, I don't / won't purposefully let anything slide.  Nice try though Schultz  

[bcane98]

3 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Wow!  Arguing about the rules with a couple of people who probably know more about them and how they're applied than you ever will.  And adding insults just because they've attempted to correct your mistaken interpretation.  That's pretty bold.  I'm sure if you put your words into action, you can test it for real life and see how it goes.  Good luck with that.

 

Zero value to the conversation... move along please

[ltdmstr]

4 minutes ago, bcane98 said:

 

Zero value to the conversation... move along please

 

Jeez, typical troll comment.  Surely you can do better.

[teros135]

7 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Jeez, typical troll comment.  Surely you can do better.

 

Yep.  This has been revealed to be troll, pure and simple.  Always comes back to "it's all about me" and "let me tell you what's wrong with you".  He'll get this thread closed pretty soon, if history serves, so the OP might just ask the mods to lock it up. 

[pjb45]

3 hours ago, IVC said:

Correct, but "direct supervision" means that the RO is telling the shooter to do it, not merely that he is catching with the corner of his eye what's going on and choosing to ignore it. 

 

To read it as "one can do it as long as there is an RO in the vicinity" would mean that "it is allowed" since there are always ROs in the area, which in turn would mean that the rule 10.5.19 is there for decoration since the verbiage would never apply. 

 

Or, to put it differently, how would *you* (personally) apply 10.5.19? At what point would you apply this rule and for what type of violation? Notice that the rule addresses turning the dot on/off *exactly the same* as, e.g., taking a sight picture, so anything you say about the dot applies to the sight picture as well...

Just a small point of contention: "direct supervision" does not necessarily mean 'telling', it means the RO is communicating with the shooter, verbally or non-verbally in a manner that is clearly understandable to the shooter and RO.  

 

To me, the main conflict of this thread centers around the concept of direct supervision.  Obviously there is room for various interpretations of those words.  Some officials may be more restrictive whereas others more flexible.  But all are concerned about the safety of the stage.

 

Personally, If I am the RO/CRO on a stage I probably will not DQ someone for extending their stock while under my direct supervision as they approach the start position.  I will (and have told) tell them not to adjust their optic, remove their flag or rack the bolt  until they are in the shooting area.  This  practice is fairly prevalent in the matches I attend.  WE do warn them not to adjust their equipment at the staging table.  

 

USPSA is evolving it's strategy and policies regarding PCC and 3Gun inclusion. These discussion are helpful.

[pjb45]

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

Easiest thing for you to do is email Troy and ask him to define “under the direct supervision of an RO”. My money is on him answering, “after make ready”.

I wonder if Troy will respond in Front Sight like he did for RO Downrange thread.  

 

[driver8M3]

45 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Just a small point of contention: "direct supervision" does not necessarily mean 'telling', it means the RO is communicating with the shooter, verbally or non-verbally in a manner that is clearly understandable to the shooter and RO.  

 

To me, the main conflict of this thread centers around the concept of direct supervision.  Obviously there is room for various interpretations of those words.  Some officials may be more restrictive whereas others more flexible.  But all are concerned about the safety of the stage.

 

Personally, If I am the RO/CRO on a stage I probably will not DQ someone for extending their stock while under my direct supervision as they approach the start position.  I will (and have told) tell them not to adjust their optic, remove their flag or rack the bolt  until they are in the shooting area.  This  practice is fairly prevalent in the matches I attend.  WE do warn them not to adjust their equipment at the staging table.  

Chapter 10 is pretty clear. Extending the stock of a PCC would seem to be covered under 10.5.19's "All other gun handling..." provision even though it's not specifically listed as an example. Why do you think extending the stock is exempt from these rules? Would you allow me to draw my pistol under your direct supervision as I approach the start position before you issue a command?

 

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. This includes deliberately removing a flag from a PCC except under the conditions listed here.

10.5.19 Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed.