PCC handling ?

[p7fl]

There was a question about Handling last week. I didn’t want to step on the thread with this.

PCCs shooters often fiddle with their rifles on the sidelines, adjusting stocks, turning optics off and on and adjusting brightness.

My comment to them is that I believe that is still handling and they either take the rifles to the Safe Area OR wait for a LMR command.

Am I correct telling them that?

[AzShooter]

I'm not an expert but I've seen the same thing and have told the shooter to go to the Safe Area to handle their weapon.  I can't quote a rule though but I believe it would be considered unsafe gun handling.  

 

[RadarTech]

Go read 10.5.19. 
that should answer your questions..

 

[Batmo]

3 hours ago, RadarTech said:

Go read 10.5.19. 
that should answer your questions..

 

+ 1

The rule is pretty clear...break it and you go home !

[IVC]

Short answer - Not allowed, DQ per 10.5.19 (as pointed above).

 

The "berm exception" is not for handling, just for casing and uncasing. It's an alternative to showing up at the line with a cased rifle (as a side issue, some Open shooters will show up at the line with a cased gun, then after Make Ready will take it out and holster). Any gun handling is still only allowed at the safety table. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by IVC
mistyped DQ section

[71Commander]

On 10/21/2020 at 6:28 AM, p7fl said:

 fiddle with their rifles on the sidelines,

 

Expand on the fiddling. Are they holding the PCC in their hands while making adjustments or is the firearm in the rack, on a cart while they turn the dot on/off etc...?

[p7fl]

Thanks all for pointing out the rule.

Was a CRO for 18 years before resigning this year. Not exactly a newbie to the rule book.

To answer 71Commander, I was thinking of guys who lift the gun from their bags and start with adjustments.

I know I also have done it , prepped the gun , optics and stock, on Stage 1 to keep things moving along. Mea Culpa.

[motosapiens]

this seems like one of those areas where overzealous RO's can try to figure out ways to screw shooters over that are not doing anything unsafe. As such, it probably needs to be addressed more carefully in the rulebook, like most of the other ways have been.  I can turn my pistol dot on while the gun is in the holster. I don't see anything wrong with unfolding the stock and turning a pcc dot on while holding it safely vertical, but I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).

[driver8M3]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

this seems like one of those areas where overzealous RO's can try to figure out ways to screw shooters over that are not doing anything unsafe. As such, it probably needs to be addressed more carefully in the rulebook, like most of the other ways have been.  I can turn my pistol dot on while the gun is in the holster. I don't see anything wrong with unfolding the stock and turning a pcc dot on while holding it safely vertical, but I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).

Do you interpret 10.5.19 as allowing a PCC shooter to turn the dot on/off wherever he/she wants?

[IVC]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

this seems like one of those areas where overzealous RO's can try to figure out ways to screw shooters over that are not doing anything unsafe. As such, it probably needs to be addressed more carefully in the rulebook, like most of the other ways have been.  I can turn my pistol dot on while the gun is in the holster. I don't see anything wrong with unfolding the stock and turning a pcc dot on while holding it safely vertical, but I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).

Not all rules are directly unsafe. Some rules are there to avoid potentially unsafe situations. For example, if you have a dummy round in the chamber or handle it at the safe table it's not by itself unsafe. Neither is not having a chamber flag if the PCC is unloaded. 

 

Changing the rule to allow handling PCC at the berm would require also allowing the same handling of the handguns at the berm, which in turn would promote berms to the safety areas. Could be done, but why? Everyone gets to handle guns in the same areas now, what's wrong with that? 

[Sarge]

13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).

You mean the kind of RO that reads and understand the rulebook? It seems like some of us want it both ways. We have a thread complaining of weak RO’s at nationals while we also have a thread complaining about RO’s actually doing a good job.

[SGT_Schultz]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

this seems like one of those areas where overzealous RO's can try to figure out ways to screw shooters over that are not doing anything unsafe. As such, it probably needs to be addressed more carefully in the rulebook, like most of the other ways have been.  I can turn my pistol dot on while the gun is in the holster. I don't see anything wrong with unfolding the stock and turning a pcc dot on while holding it safely vertical, but I do acknowledge that a certain kind of RO might interpret that as not allowed by the rules (it certainly isn't unsafe).

The rules for unsafe gun handling are what they are.  There's no room for personal interpretation about what is or isn't safe.

 

I'll be one of those ROs of a certain kind.  The kind that enforces the rules as written.

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

 

 

Do you interpret 10.5.19 as allowing a PCC shooter to turn the dot on/off wherever he/she wants?

I believe I wrote that I thought the rule should be changed to be less silly. If that wasn't obvious, let me make it so now.

 

On the rare occasions when I shoot PCC, I prefer to just go to a real safe table and get the gun all the way ready before I go to the line so as to avoid wasting everyone's time.

 

I sort of get the idea of the rule, you don't want the unbagging area to become another safe area where people are spending time doing sight pictures and dryfire and so forth, and it makes sense to me to not allow that kind of behavior, but it doesn't make sense to me to prohibit turning the dot on and unfolding the stock, and I'm not sure how an RO can really prove that i did or didn't surreptitiously  press a tiny button on the gun.

 

The fact that people appear to be *routinely* doing things that are prohibited by the rule but still entirely safe suggests to me that the situation needs some attention.

Edited October 28, 2020 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:and I'm not sure how an RO can really prove that i did or didn't surreptitiously  press a tiny button on the gun.

 

The fact that people appear to be *routinely* doing things that are prohibited by the rule but still entirely safe suggests to me that the situation needs some attention.

As an RO I pay a lot of attention to my surroundings. I have watched shooters turn dots on/off when unbagging or bagging at a side berm. But as an FYI I didn’t DQ them but instead pointed out the rule that prohibits it. In each case the shooter had no clue.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

As an RO I pay a lot of attention to my surroundings. I have watched shooters turn dots on/off when unbagging or bagging at a side berm. But as an FYI I didn’t DQ them but instead pointed out the rule that prohibits it. In each case the shooter had no clue.

that seems like a humane way to treat it, but it seems odd that so many people have no clue, and that the rule prohibits something so safe. I suspect it was intended to prevent people from engaging in safe-table type behavior (sight pictures, dry-fire, disassembly, etc.....). It seems silly to prohibit touching a button on a flagged weapon that is being held vertically.

Edited October 28, 2020 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that seems like a humane way to treat it, but it seems odd that so many people have no clue, and that the rule prohibits something so safe. I suspect it was intended to prevent people from engaging in safe-table type behavior (sight pictures, dry-fire, disassembly, etc.....). It seems silly to prohibit touching a button on a flagged weapon that is being held vertically.

I agree 100%

[p7fl]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

on a flagged weapon that is being held vertically.

 

Call this Part II to my original question. I park the wagon, muzzle to the berm. When it is my turn to PCC, I just lift the stock up by the butt and carry to the starting position muzzle Down.

I continue with muzzle down for scoring and bagging.

Is there another rule I am missing for muzzle Up or Down?

jon

[motosapiens]

31 minutes ago, p7fl said:

 

Call this Part II to my original question. I park the wagon, muzzle to the berm. When it is my turn to PCC, I just lift the stock up by the butt and carry to the starting position muzzle Down.

I continue with muzzle down for scoring and bagging.

Is there another rule I am missing for muzzle Up or Down?

jon

i'm pretty sure it's ok either way, but it seems to me that muzzle up is much easier to avoid sweeping my feet or someone else's feet. Everyone I have seen around here does muzzle up.

[Southpaw]

58 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It seems silly to prohibit touching a button on a flagged weapon that is being held vertically.

 

You're allowed to touch the button, but if you press it that's a DQ

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, p7fl said:

 

Call this Part II to my original question. I park the wagon, muzzle to the berm. When it is my turn to PCC, I just lift the stock up by the butt and carry to the starting position muzzle Down.

I continue with muzzle down for scoring and bagging.

Is there another rule I am missing for muzzle Up or Down?

jon

You can carry muzzle up or down but just know you can still muzzle your feet or legs with a flagged PCC. 

[nasty618]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

As an RO I pay a lot of attention to my surroundings. I have watched shooters turn dots on/off when unbagging or bagging at a side berm. But as an FYI I didn’t DQ them but instead pointed out the rule that prohibits it

 

5 hours ago, Sarge said:

You mean the kind of RO that reads and understand the rulebook?

 

So how do we strike a balance between being an honest RO who understands and, as a result, enforces the rules equally and without bias and cutting slack to newer or less knowledgeable shooters?  Because these two things often conflict with each other...  I have my own thoughts on this but i am curious to hear others' opinions.  This is an honest question, as i agree that there rules that could use some additional attention from the NROI leadership.  

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, nasty618 said:

 

 

So how do we strike a balance between being an honest RO who understands and, as a result, enforces the rules equally and without bias and cutting slack to newer or less knowledgeable shooters?  Because these two things often conflict with each other...  I have my own thoughts on this but i am curious to hear others' opinions.  This is an honest question, as i agree that there rules that could use some additional attention from the NROI leadership.  

Well, speaking for myself, if you are a total newb at a local I generally cut some slack except for safety concerns. But even at local matches if you have been shooting PCC for two years I'm going to hold you to the rules. And if it's a major, I typically give zero slack. Even though some people who are nowhere near ready get talked into shooting major matches, I'm going to treat you like a seasoned shooter who should know the rules.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Sarge

[Batmo]

14 hours ago, Sarge said:

Well, speaking for myself, if you are a total newb at a local I generally cut some slack except for safety concerns. But even at local matches if you have been shooting PCC for two years I'm going to hold you to the rules. And if it's a major, I typically give zero slack. Even though some people who are nowhere near ready get talked into shooting major matches, I'm going to treat you like a seasoned shooter who should know the rules.

I agree with "Sarge" on this one.

[IVC]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:03 AM, Sarge said:

You can carry muzzle up or down but just know you can still muzzle your feet or legs with a flagged PCC. 

Hmm, I looked it up and it clearly says, in bold, that it can be either muzzle up or muzzle down. Still, I believe I recall rules saying that the RM could choose one direction and declare it the only valid direction. Was this an old rule that got updated? Maybe I'm just seeing things...  

[bcane98]

Chamber flag is in, extend the stock, turn the optic on, and safely move to the "hole" position to await my turn.... "common sense" movements is basically how we do it.  If you're going to make any adjustments then shooter know to make their way to the safe zone and adjustment as needed.  I have to agree with the comment above about some over zealous RO's who might let the position go to their head and take advantage of the situation.  We're all here to have fun, improve our skillset (if needed), and enjoy the company of others with similar interests.  All that goes out the door when shooters start using a microscope to interpret rules... similar to a Career Politician ... lol  

 

But my Free Nickel's worth of advice is only worth about $.02 now days    

Edited October 30, 2020 by bcane98
spelling