Airgunning

[kruger]

Do you know when Medford/Keno shoots?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Medford IDPA shoots on the 4th Saturday. PM me for the Medford MD's phone/e-mail.

Can I bring my Uncle Mikes holster or do I need to buy an expensive approved one? $16 for the UM is hard to beat. I'm shooting an XD, but I could bring my Sig P226 because I have a Bladetech holster for it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which Uncle Mikes is it? I have a paddle UM that is fine. The belt loop version is not legal without some alterations to narrow the belt tunnel.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[Nolan]

The powers that be didn't ban airgunning to be more practical or tactical, they just don't like it.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My suspicion has always been that it just doesn't look real tactical for a bunch of grown men to be walking the course hunched over in a shooting stance pointing their finger muttering under their breath "pow, pow, pupow, pupow, ding, ding, pow, pow, ding, ding!"

Nolan

Skilled, but otherwise unremarkable.

[George]

it just doesn't look real tactical for a bunch of grown men to be walking the course hunched over in a shooting stance pointing their finger muttering under their breath "pow, pow, pupow, pupow, ding, ding, pow, pow, ding, ding!"

That's it! That's exactly it!! ;-)

[Clay1]

We always do this when we compare IDPA and USPSA in these types of conversations. The real deal is that both sports are a blast and trigger time is there. Now, I can understand us slamming the anti-gun, tree hugging liberals from hell, but if you want to play this game and I want to play that game and we both play with guns - you are my kind of person. You are a friend by default unless you don't offer me a beer when I come over or some other serious offense.

Now, I am a cross over shooter, which I will define as I shoot both games. Bluntly this year, I started to feel the slightest bit elitest about my USPSA shooting and was doing it almost exclusivly for a couple of months right before the state IDPA match. I decided to go to state without shooting a local match for more than 2 months. I had my ass handed to me. I didn't shoot the greatest but that was not the real reason. You train to do certain things in USPSA matches like double tap targets. I was suppose to shoot this one with one round and that one with one round etc. I just botched up the cof pretty badly. There is definatley a skill in shooting one game vs the other and for those that can do both well, my hats off to you.

If you shoot IDPA and haven't shot USPSA or the other way around - give it a try with an open mind. If you run into a jerk, guess what both games have them but they are rare - just move forward and enjoy yourself. If you're in a slump, maybe the new game will kick some enthusiasm back into gun games for you.

Go pull the trigger and have fun.

Rick

[COF]

We shoot the first Saturday also Do you know when Medford/Keno shoots? Can I bring my Uncle Mikes holster or do I need to buy an expensive approved one? $16 for the UM is hard to beat. I'm shooting an XD, but I could bring my Sig P226 because I have a Bladetech holster for it. 

Threaddrift...

Buy the paddle attachment for the UM or pickup the Bladetech injection molded holster for the XD. I modified my UM by taking the belt attachment off and cutting and attaching a flat sheet of kydex to the holster. Then heated it and molded it to the holster. Changes it to a real tight fit.

Jerry

Edited October 5, 2005 by COF

[Loves2Shoot]

Thanks guys! I have the Uncle Mike paddle holster, I have a modified hanger for IPSC Production class, but can still draw out of the standard one ok.

Rick,

Doubletap, what's a double tap? (I hate the term because it is a huge stumbling block for people.) Might as well aim each shot be it one shot or 6 on a target.

I'm wondering if it would be a totally stupid idea to headshot all the targets? I am not used to the round circle in the center of the target is less visable, and I know I can hit headshots.

What is the average distance of the targets-max distance?

I'm going to try to make it to Medford next month.

Is the XD 5" OK or should I shoot a standard length?

[kruger]

I'm wondering if it would be a totally stupid idea to headshot all the targets? I am not used to the round circle in the center of the target is less visable, and I know I can hit headshots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I, personally, wouldn't headshoot all the targets. The -0 circle is wider, but higher, than the A zone on an IPSC metric target. Aim for the upper half of where you would expect the main A zone to be and you should be fine.

What is the average distance of the targets-max distance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this varies from club to club, and match to match. Most of the targets will be in the 2-7 yard range. The max distance is limited only by bay size.

Is the XD 5" OK or should I shoot a standard length?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A stock 5" XD is fine, AFAIK.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

Edited October 5, 2005 by kruger

[Clay1]

The lower down zero zone (body) is the place to shoot.

Cut and paste from the current rule book:

CoF 2. Seventy-five percent of all shots required in a match must be fifteen (15) yards or less. Occasional targets out to thirty-five (35) yards are to be encouraged.

The IDPA rule book is much smaller than the USPSA rulebook, read through it a couple of times at work. It helps scratch the itch.

http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

[Loves2Shoot]

Would I get nailed for just shooting -0 in the head instead? I just think it would be fun and heck at only 7 yards, why not? Headshots are more tactical, right? (just kidding)

I've only shot at IDPA targets once and found it was easier to shoot the heads than the circle from a sight picture perspective. But the distances were more like 15 yards average.

I've read the rulebook a few times now, just wanting to know distance people usually shoot. I know it varies by range. I generally practice 13-20 yards, so if I'm going to shoot a match were most all the shots are half that distance, I should probably move in my practice some.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Nik Habicht]

I can remember shooting a stage at the Winter Championships (in 2003 IIRC) where you had to engage each target twice in the body, and then once in the head. I knew that I threw one of the body shots high, but didn't make it up --- because I was used to that type of stage being scored this way: You must have at least one hit in the head, the other two can be anywhere on the target, including the head.

However, I missed this detail from the walkthrough for that stage: We'll be scoring the best two hits to the body of the target, and one headshot per target. Putting three rounds in the head, will get you one hit, and two mikes. Live and learn --- I knew enough in 2004, to really clarify how they were going to score any similar stages....

[Ted Murphy]

I've read the rulebook a few times now, just wanting to know distance people usually shoot. I know it varies by range. I generally practice 13-20 yards, so if I'm going to shoot a match were most all the shots are half that distance, I should probably move in my practice some.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FWIW, the new rulebook addresses that and clarifies that the head is the part of the body. So three head shots where a 2 body 1 head is called four would be scored -0. Just read the caveat in the book pertaining to competitive advantage.

Ted

Edited October 6, 2005 by Ted Murphy

[Ted Murphy]

Didn't USPSA redo the wording on airgunning recently after guys started mounting dots on plastic guns so they could better scope things out? IIRC you now cannot have anything in your hand when you airgun.

As I understand it, that was changed because some people needed to change their shorts first time they saw the plastic gun w/ scope being used to airgun a stage.

Ted

[dirtypool40]

I've never heard of any "shart" stories, but back when I first started someone was marketing a "walkthrough stick" that mounted a bomar rib on a magazine. I even saw some of them used. But that's been at least four or fove years ago.

Now, it is illegal to use anything. Of course some RO's yell at a guy walking through drinking out of a bottle of gatorade, but then we have those types in every sport.

In a slight drift of this, most international IPSC matches won't let you take any sight pictures at LAMR. Not for any tactical reason, just people were getting really out of hand, like I mentioned about Burner and the 12 minute LAMR.

You can still check your dot, and make a draw stroke, just don't point at an array.

I think most USPSA matches still allow a sight picture, so long as it's not excessive and you don't leave the start position.

[George]

IPSC 2004 Pistol 8.7 covers this very well. One sight picture, on one target, if a sight picture is even allowed with an unloaded gun. None whatsoever with a loaded gun. No target sequence running and multiple tests of the same at LAMR. Pretty specific and I wish the US used it instead of ignoring it.

--

Regards,

Edited October 6, 2005 by George

[Clay1]

George, I cut an pasted this from the current rule book:

"8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection

8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 57

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match.

US8.7.1 Not applicable."

Does the last statement: "US8.7.1 Not applicable" mean that we don't have this rule in USPSA and that it is only for IPSC matches?

I was told that I could only take one sight picture at a match this year and never with a loaded gun.

Can I or can't I in a USPSA match. I don't shoot IPSC just USPSA.

Rick

[Clay1]

Guess that I should have posted the whole section:

"8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection

8.7.1 Competitors are always prohibited from taking a sight picture

with a loaded firearm prior to the start signal. Violation will

result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 57

penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match.

US8.7.1 Not applicable.

8.7.2 If match organizers also prohibit taking a sight picture with an

unloaded firearm prior to the start signal, competitors must be

advised in the written stage briefing. Violation will result in a

warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for

each subsequent occurrence in the same match.

US8.7.2 Not applicable.

8.7.3 When permitted, competitors taking a sight picture with an

unloaded firearm prior to the start signal must only do so on a

single target, to verify that their sights are prepared as required.

Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position

while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per

occurrence.

US8.7.3 Not applicable.

8.7.4 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the

whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real

firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their

own hands, while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of

a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per

occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1)."

[George]

Yeah, I made the same mistake earlier and looked at 2004 IPSC first, thought the same thing, then looked at USPSA 2004 and noticed the fine print.

I wish the rule was in place here too. Oh well!

[Vlad]

I think the problem is that USPSA would have to re-write the rule, because the IPSC version depends on warnings, and USPSA has wisely droped the warning crap. You would have to rewrite it as a procedural or DQ.

[Crusher]

Spiked in USPSA "air gunning" does NOT involve the use of hanguns or any component thereof. ALL USPSA matches I have ever attended are "cold ranges" (NO gunhandling outside of the "safe area unless at the direction of a CRO/RO).

In IDPA I have shot some "hot range" clubs over the years and prefer to ULSC (Unload Show Clear) after stage completion regardless of "hot range" (hint: it gives one more draw than you would otherwise have on a "hot range").

You are right that some are "airgunning" (among other things) in their head (IDPA) while doing the walk through and on the squads with the more experience competitors the "conga line" exists in IDPA too just without the airgunning.

[spiked]

Crusher, you and I are in agreement.

What I am saying is, that for example, if I was walking through a 'clear the house' scenario, and someone came around the corner and by accident an 'air gun' was sticking in my face, my reaction is going to be at very least to quickly move my foot to his groin (knowing d4mn well he doesn't have a loaded gun). Is it so far of a stretch to understand that someone might act like that? The no air-gunning rule is a rule I accept because I feel it is a safety issue.

There are obviously people who do not think its a safety issue. Some think it is all about an advantage gained as opposed to just walking through ...[edit]

The fact that USPSA allows air-gunning is fine with me. Like I said, I've never been to a USPSA match, I don't know anything about them and I don't know the circumstances that air gunning is allowed.

I understand and respect there is different opinions. I was merely sharing mine. And again, part of my opinion stems from being around 'experts' who are not safe. As far as a top shooter being unsafe - I once heard about someone tossing a loaded round into a box of loaded rounds from waste height and setting off several in the process. I hope I don't embarrass (or anger) him because I really like him, but what was he thinking?

Edited October 6, 2005 by Flexmoney

[Crusher]

What I am saying is, that for example, if I was walking through a 'clear the house' scenario, and someone came around the corner and by accident an 'air gun' was sticking in my face, my reaction is going to be at very least to quickly move my foot to his groin (knowing d4mn well he doesn't have a loaded gun). Is it so far of a stretch to understand that someone might act like that? The no air-gunning rule is a rule I accept because I feel it is a safety issue.

IMHO that reaction is a "stretch" given the environment in which the action shooting "games" exist. For some other " training environment" that reaction may well be an optional course of action, but certainly all I know and compete with the games that allow "air gunning" the thought only "occasionally" crosses their mind when it's "their stage" to shoot (yes USPSA even has an "individual walkthrough allowance) and some other competitor is on the stage.

Edit: I don't think "saftey" was at issue when looking to remove "airgunning" from IDPA as it has not ever presented a problem with "saftey" in USPSA from the standpoint you have expressed.

Edited October 6, 2005 by Crusher

[kruger]

What I am saying is, that for example, if I was walking through a 'clear the house' scenario, and someone came around the corner and by accident an 'air gun' was sticking in my face, my reaction is going to be at very least to quickly move my foot to his groin (knowing d4mn well he doesn't have a loaded gun).  Is it so far of a stretch to understand that someone might act like that?  The no air-gunning rule is a rule I accept because I feel it is a safety issue. 

There are obviously people who do not think its a safety issue. Some think it is all about an advantage gained as opposed to just walking through, I disagree but I don't tell them they are mall trained ninjas.

The fact that USPSA allows air-gunning is fine with me. Like I said, I've never been to a USPSA match, I don't know anything about them and I don't know the circumstances that air gunning is allowed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is a good thing you have never been to a USPSA match.

It saves you from the hassle of getting arrested on charges of assault and battery.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[edit]

Edited October 6, 2005 by Flexmoney

[ima45dv8]

What I am saying is, that for example, if I was walking through a 'clear the house' scenario, and someone came around the corner and by accident an 'air gun' was sticking in my face, my reaction is going to be at very least to quickly move my foot to his groin (knowing d4mn well he doesn't have a loaded gun).  Is it so far of a stretch to understand that someone might act like that? The no air-gunning rule is a rule I accept because I feel it is a safety issue. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Given that you say you would do so knowing damned well they didn't have a loaded gun pointed at you, Yes, that is very hard to understand how someone might act like that. If you have the time to recognize it's just someone walking around pointing his finger at targets and possibly even at you, the sort of response you describe would be, at the very least . . . . . . . . . unwise.

[itento]

To answer Loves2Shoots request:

Any tips are welcome.

- The best advise I have is to shoot with a buddy and watch each others butt. I have shot several IDPA matches with mostly USPSA guys and almost every match I have had to say "watch it, airgunning" as we discussed COFs from the sidelines. I've been guilty also ("see those targets over there (pointing).....).

It's just hard to talk and not use your hands (yes. I am from Lower Alabama).

[Flexmoney]

I've removed several referrences to "Mall Ninjas" from the thread. I hope I got them all.

Let's ease up a bit, folks.