Uspsa Shooters At Idpa Matches

[RickB]

Ghengis, I think you're right.  I started IDPA fresh out of the academy, and finished 5th, 3rd, 3rd and 1st in the first four matches I shot.  Two years later I came out of IDPA a regular local match and State Division match winner, classified as IDPA "Master".  I classified as a 70.3% "B" my second match in IPSC and got my butt handed to me for two solid years.

It's hard to compare apples to apples, because in IPSC you can track your improvement more easily with what % you shot in classifiers or in reference to your local hot shot.  In IDPA you still chase the local hot rock, and your score on the classification course, but there aren't any percentages, so you just have to kinda guess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've found that classification doesn't necessarily mean much. I've been a Sharpshooter for four years, and even as my USPSA classification rose to 80%, I still couldn't get within ten seconds of IDPA Expert. I know guys who are IDPA Experts, and they can't get within 10% of A class; works both ways.

[dirtypool40]

RickB - I agree, sort of. IDPA is so harsh on anything outside an Down Zero, or "A" that I actually have to slow down to do well on their classifier. Barely leaking a "down 1" by an inch is disasterous and you pretty much have to shoot the first two STAGES down zero. a "2" hit factor is pretty out of touch at those distances.

It's not that USPSA shooters don't shoot A's faster than that, but at half a second per point down, the risk / reward is so unbalanced, guys who want to score well, are going to slow down to "cinch it" speed. At least that's my experience.

On stage three, 2 pts. / Second is a lot closer to the right hit factor for that distance, for a good Master level shooter from either sport. Still a good score here will be almost entirely based on the time shot, ie down very few points.

There is a style and emphasis difference, but personally I think USPSA's system is better as it measure everything across the board with hit factors that match each array. I do have to admit I wish there were move movement and field course based classifiers in USPSA, but the ones they have are pretty good.

Other than practicing portions of classics like El Prez, USPSA don't often practice classifiers. IDPA shooters, at least the ones I know around here, often spend a good amount of time really going through and working that one course that determines their class.

As far as your comment about it not meaning much, I have to agree. I have looked at the IDPA nationals scores every year, and I always notice how outside of the top three or four in a division, the classes are mixed. (I don't like how they separate folks out by class in either sport, it encourages sandbagging for a tin cup.) By this I mean 5th "M" has a score about like 1st "Ex". It's obvious that some folks are either sandbagging to get a "1st EXPERT" National title, or that some folks may may not perform to their level in major matches. That's a problem in both sports.

Did I make any sense. I think I've confused even me.

Edited October 10, 2005 by dirtypool40

[RickB]

The IDPA classifier is meant to be practiced. It contains most of the skills that are used in IDPA shooting (if string one of stage three was replaced with more shooting from seven yards - perhaps moving laterally - it would be a better test of IDPA skill. Why have 1/3 of the total rounds fired from 15-20 yards, when it's rare to shoot more than a handful of rounds at those ranges?). Very much unlike IPSC classifiers, which really test little of the wide range of skills necessary to do well at IPSC matches. I'd say 90% of the classifiers I've shot have tested only my ability to stand flat-footed and hose targets at 7-10 yards, which is hardly representative of what is faced in the typical field course. Virtually every classifier could be improved - in the interest of classifiers reflecting a test of overall skill - by doing nothing but adding a second shooting box.

[tightloop]

I think IDPA has evolved quite a bit since Bill W and his buds wrote the first classifier....there should definately be more movement and less hosing at 7 yds...

Needs to be rewritten to make it substantially harder....my .02 worth

[dirtypool40]

Rick and Loop, I think we're all saying the same thing.

Now how do we get the front office in both sports to listen?

[cottyw]

I find this topic fascinating. I am currently writing my masters on the amount of influence competitions shooting has had on the United States Army. I would be interested to know which sport (IPSC or IDPA) you think has contributed more to the military?

Additionally, I shoot both and coming at the problem from a wide-angle view the difference to me seems to be one of the principles of the offence vs. the principles of the deference.

Offence = Speed, surprise and violence of action - USPSA

Defense = Preparation, security, disruption, massing effects, and flexibility - IDPA

Will

[Mark Perez]

I find this topic fascinating.  I am currently writing my masters on the amount of influence competitions shooting has had on the United States Army.  I would be interested to know which sport (IPSC or IDPA) you think has contributed more to the military?

Additionally, I shoot both and coming at the problem from a wide-angle view the difference to me seems to be one of the principles of the offence vs. the principles of the deference.

Offence = Speed, surprise and violence of action - USPSA

Defense = Preparation, security, disruption, massing effects, and flexibility - IDPA

Will

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If any sport had influence on the military (to the military's detriment) , it would be NRA High Power Rifle.

Especially in the re-development of the original Ar-15 , a rifle that was designed from the ground up as an enemy killer and turned into a match rifle (the A2).

my 2 cents

Mark

Edited October 10, 2005 by Mark Perez

[Patrick Sweeney]

My perspective on classifiers is a bit different. If we want to rank people by skill, then we need only test a representative group of skills. We do not need to have every aspect of USPSA or IDPA in the mix to classify people. Granted, if the calssifiers are all 7 yard hosers, we aren't ranking shooters on their ability to shoot a 32-round field course.

But how many clubs can set up that 32-round field course exactly as designed? Mine can't. Fully half the stages at any Nationals, my club simply could not set up.

As for competitive shooting having an influence on the military, yes NRA High Power has had a detrimental effect, if you consider high-speed shooting 50 meters and in the be-all and end-all of shooting. The distances were not the problem, the cast in stone and refusal to learn from experimenters was the problem.

If the question is one of USPSA or IDPA, USPSA all the way. Look at who the SpecOps people are hiring.

But the NRA could take a sex education class and have people asleep halfway thorugh.

[Jim Norman]

just my $0.02 on this.

NRA Hi-power, a very ridgid set of positions and a very rigid time and distance. THis is entirely practicable. While it will develope your ability to shoot, it is not going to help a lot in a dynamic test of shooting skill where you have to engage a target at intermediate range from a half-rolled over position with your rifle laid over to the side, in the mud, with your legs jambed against a rock to keep from sliding out from behind your cover, all while someone is very definately trying to kill you.

I would think that the best shooting sport for training would be one that has little if any repeat situations and emphasises getting your hits in not only accurately, but also very fast. To this end the 3-gun matches that are run as ( I know everyone hates this term, but until someone comes up with a better title) "Tactical" THat is matches that require you to use "Duty Gear" and to carry a long gun and a pistol and to use both. One match in particular comes to mind, the NC Recon where you are also required to carry your ammo, food and water all day.

Many people can shoot good, real good, but can they do it when it is 100 degrees and they are wearing a 20-30 pound pack? While this type of match may not be 100 percent, it seems that it is far better than a bullseye match be it rifle or pistol.

Again, this is only my $0.02 and as usual, your thoghts may vary.

[dirtypool40]

I find this topic fascinating.  I am currently writing my masters on the amount of influence competitions shooting has had on the United States Army.  I would be interested to know which sport (IPSC or IDPA) you think has contributed more to the military?

Additionally, I shoot both and coming at the problem from a wide-angle view the difference to me seems to be one of the principles of the offence vs. the principles of the deference.

Offence = Speed, surprise and violence of action - USPSA

Defense = Preparation, security, disruption, massing effects, and flexibility - IDPA

Will

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting but IDPA could never be described as flexible. That is one of the fundamental differences, IDPA you are told how you must do things, IPSC you are normally given the problem and allowed to find the solution. Walkthroughs at last weekend's MONSTER MATCH were usually something like "start anywhere in the shooting area" or "start here" then you were left pretty much to your own devices.

Also, look at where the best techniques, not tactics but techniques are developed. I understand the high end units develope and share their own tactics as applicable to their specific mission, but they still want to learn from the best technicians, not tacticians.

The "fast, gamey, non IDPA way" to shoot a port, door way or window, just happens to be what they now call pie-ing. Watch any big dog GM shoot through a field course, he is pie-ing every position, just faster than some would like.

It's like Barnhart says when he goes to train some "steely eyed killers"; I have never been LEO or in the Military, but I can train you to shoot faster and more accurately.

[tightloop]

cottyw

to answer your question, just look at the people who are actively involved with training any of the military, or law enforcement agencies here in the US and even if they shoot both sports, which one is their primary sport....I know of NO predominately IDPA shooters who train any of the groups I mentioned...but I can name at least a dozen USPSA/IPSC shooters who actively train those people...

Also you don;t see any of the AAMU who shoot in all the big IDPA matches, but the AAMU has a couple of USPSA teams that compete all over the globe...

[dirtypool40]

My perspective on classifiers is a bit different. If we want to rank people by skill, then we need only test a representative group of skills. We do not need to have every aspect of USPSA or IDPA in the mix to classify people. Granted, if the calssifiers are all 7 yard hosers, we aren't ranking shooters on their ability to shoot a 32-round field course.

But how many clubs can set up that 32-round field course exactly as designed? Mine can't. Fully half the stages at any Nationals, my club simply could not set up.

As for competitive shooting having an influence on the military, yes NRA High Power has had a detrimental effect, if you consider high-speed shooting 50 meters and in the be-all and end-all of shooting. The distances were not the problem, the cast in stone and refusal to learn from experimenters was the problem.

If the question is one of USPSA or IDPA, USPSA all the way. Look at who the SpecOps people are hiring.

But the NRA could take a sex education class and have people asleep halfway thorugh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good points Pat. High Pwer and Camp Perry type bullseye matches, to include snoozers like PPC teach hold and squeeze, but under damn little in the way of unpracticed skills or time pressure. It's like practicing to hit your seven iron at exactly the same flag on the same driving range every day. How prepared for a new course are you?

I ran into this a lot in our qual course, where even combat vets wanted to do range perfect, textbook 3-position shooting where they could nap between shots. I didn't make friends, but I changed what I could.

Skills have evolved past those sports, and they have little relevance. You guys may think I am an IDPA basher but I would much rather have a month of IDPA training in the academy than a month of PPC.

But for the bean counters who want everyone to qual on reduced sillouettes at 25m with sub munition .22 uppers on their rifles, it's all about mediocrity and "leaving no marks-person behind". More "practical" or "dynamic" courses might save lives and perforate more bad guys, but damnit it might also take more training time, turning our military into, god forbid......shooters .

Funny aside, I have a buddy working for one of those big contractors CNN is always picking on, and they just finished re-training the entire fleet how to shoot just like I am talking about.

Edited October 10, 2005 by dirtypool40

[Clay1]

A comment on shooting both IDPA and USPSA. I find that some put down the other game because bluntly it is damn hard to switch back and forth. Two sets of rules and styles. It's not easy to do both well. Yes, trigger time is trigger time, but it seems that you can almost go auto pilot if you do one game often. If you shoot two different games, it sure makes you think more.

I like switching back and forth even though it has not been the best score wise. I know that IDPA is very scripted, but if you are use to engaging each target twice and dropping mags, it still makes you think.

I started shooting IDPA because that is what was available. I shoot mostly USPSA these days. I want to do well at both. For those that can succeed at both, my hat is off to you.

Rick

[COF]

You definitely need to have your thinking cap on when going back and forth. Probably why I'm still an IDPA SS and USPSA "C" across the board.

I've shot IPSC since it was called "combat shooting" and looked a lot like IDPA does today (minus some of the rules) and shot IDPA since 97. I'm no great shakes at either one but have a hell of a good time shooting both of them with a bottom feeder or a wheel gun.

Jerry

Edited October 10, 2005 by COF

[revchuck]

Especially in the re-development of the original Ar-15 , a rifle that was designed from the ground up as an enemy killer and turned into a match rifle (the A2).

Amen to that! I found out the hard way in Iraq, doing room clearing with an M16A2 and body armor. I'm 6'2", and the rifle was WAY out there - I felt like an eight year old with Daddy's deer gun.

I learned how to pie corners in private training, but I practiced it in IDPA matches (though I do it somewhat slower when doing it for real ). It would have never occured to me to do it during USPSA matches...still doesn't, for that matter.

Though I'm the MD at my local IDPA club, and have SOed at several state and regional matches as well as at the '99 IDPA Nationals, I shoot what I can, when I can, and keep both my IDPA and USPSA memberships current. Where I shoot, there is a lot of crossover; we pick at each other but it's good natured.

[Carmoney]

I thought I would note that my son and I just shot the USPSA Illinois Sectional match this past weekend, and we had several experienced IDPA guys on our squad who were shooting their very first USPSA match. We all got along great, and had no problem discussing the differences in style between the two games in a positive and constructive manner. It was a very nice example of how cross-over participation should work!

Mike

[whatsupglock]

"I think once IDPA recognizes and accepts that it is second fiddle to USPSA/IPSC there will be less bias towards USPSA shooters." From a previous poster.

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. They are 2 completely different games. Both fun. One is not better than the other, just different, and people are entitled to like what they like.

I have not seen any bias towards USPSA shooters at my local club, or any other club for that matter by IDPA shooters, but I have seen it the other way. I recently overheard a GM from USPSA make a really nasty comment about IDPA that I wish I hadn't heard. I am not classified in USPSA, but I shoot it alot. I can hang with the A and B shooters and I am classified expert in IDPA. I shoot matches much better than the classifier. Here's my point. I shot in the same class as the GM, he is a master of course in IDPA and I beat him. I hung right in there with him. When I shoot USPSA with him, he beats me, but I sneak a stage win or two in on him.

I shoot both. I like both. I will point out differences, but I will never speak poorly of either sport. Down zero or double alpha, just keep shootin!

[R-Bros_JLR]

How did you manage to find a 5yr old thread to revive! I'm impressed

That being said, they're both games and both can be useful training. Sure I think IDPA is overly restrictive and has some silly rules, but it's still trigger time and something to do.

[Clay1]

"I think once IDPA recognizes and accepts that it is second fiddle to USPSA/IPSC there will be less bias towards USPSA shooters." From a previous poster.

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. They are 2 completely different games. Both fun. One is not better than the other, just different, and people are entitled to like what they like.

I have not seen any bias towards USPSA shooters at my local club, or any other club for that matter by IDPA shooters, but I have seen it the other way. I recently overheard a GM from USPSA make a really nasty comment about IDPA that I wish I hadn't heard. I am not classified in USPSA, but I shoot it alot. I can hang with the A and B shooters and I am classified expert in IDPA. I shoot matches much better than the classifier. Here's my point. I shot in the same class as the GM, he is a master of course in IDPA and I beat him. I hung right in there with him. When I shoot USPSA with him, he beats me, but I sneak a stage win or two in on him.

I shoot both. I like both. I will point out differences, but I will never speak poorly of either sport. Down zero or double alpha, just keep shootin!

Everyone has a bad day once in a while. I remember shooting the same score as our State Champion ONCE. He shot like crap and I shot OK that day. People earn their rankings. Don't worry so much about others and focus on your own abilities and you will make progress quicker. Note, I like these old threads, I get notified still and it makes me want to participate more.

Shooting is shooting, just go shoot. The USPSA VS IDPA thing is like the Packers and the Bears, there will always be conflict between the two because they are competing sports. Shoot them both but we all know which one is better, the PACKERS of course.

[Chills1994]

Just an FYI...there are various degrees of USPSA "GM-ness".

when I was running some data on the 2010 limited nat's...out of 214 shooters in Limited, last place GM was 109th.

to see how you really stand in either venue you have to go to a major match...larger pond with more sharks.

comparing yourself to just one "GM" is called anecdotal evidence.

interesting...resurrecting a 5 year old thread. hmmn...

my experience just on the local level watching USPSA'ers shoot IDPA is they gotta slow down.

[Duane Thomas]

Let's bear in mind that "UPSA/IPSC versus IDPA" is on the list of verboten topics for this forum. Actually, I"m pretty sure this 6-year old thread is a holdover from before we passed that rule.

Closed.