Uspsa Shooters At Idpa Matches

[rubberneck]

I am not a IDPA MD (just an SO), but in the interest of the shooting brotherhood I'd would be interested in working with the NJ USPSA guys to put on a match where both discplines could be shot. Seems like to could be a fun match.

I promise that I wouldn't even care if the USPSA guys wanted to use their own equipment on IDPA stages. I am sure it would be a good time for both groups and would a long way towards dispelling any lingering anomosity. Or it might just be another dumb idea.

[MikeFoley]

This thread is evoking more positive respones today than yesterday, and I like the idea of the combined USPSA/IDPA match. In the past few years, our club holds an annual shoot where you can shoot one stage each of IDPA, USPSA, SASS, GSSF, and Bullseye with your own gear, or loaner gear if you do not have it. Most used the same gun for IDPA, USPSA, and GSSF, and I shot the loaner gear for cowboy. It was a blast, and I remembered that I liked shooting IDPA type stages, learned that cowboy was just like 3Gun with costumes, and that bullseye was difficult but not impossible. Everyone had a good time, and most got exposure to something new. Heck, after it was over, one guy shot the cowboy stage with an open gun just for fun, and I shot the IDPA stage again with 3 different guns to see if there was a difference. Since there was loaner guns, we used low ready, or gun from table/box on all the stages.

I also gathered that there is much emotion in the discussion, and that others and I say things that can upset people, especially when written. I agree with the folks who say that pro-gun folks should stand together. I didn't share this yesterday because I was a little torqued. I don't feel any different, but realize there are those who do. Also, every match stands alone, and you can't judge a sport by a single experience.

USPSA also has a DQ for gross unsportsmanlike behavior, a procedural penalty for not follwing course description, and a procedural penalty for coaching. The first two rules are in sections 10.2 and 10.6 of the current rulebook available on the USPSA website.

[sgtis108]

I think the question is, why would someone make unwelcome comments to a shooter from another game. I think it's insecurities of the individuals. The same reason that anyone thinks or says they are better than someone else. My chevy is better than your ford, my tv is bigger than yours etc. Some people tend to look down on others to make themselves feel better.

They should make their line longer not try to shorten someone elses

Stop tolerating it from your peers (ie, if you're a USPSA shooter, and you hear someone IDPA bashing, explain to them that they're an ignorant idiot, and vice versa)

Well how about this. Don't comfort your peer as an individual. Comfort the peer as a group in private. We don't tolerate you making people from other shooting sports unwelcome etc. That sends a VERY STRONG MESSAGE. Sell the MD and make it club policy.

I started shooting IDPA and recently crossed over. It was tough going from SSP MA to production C class.

I did get the gamer name alot in IDPA.

[rmills]

Earlier today I posted a reply that contained a quote from a poster here that clearly bashed IDPA and the people who particpate. My only response to the quote was that never in all of the IDPA matches I have attended, have I witnessed any of the stereotypes listed in the post and that this type of unsubstantiated rhetoric continues to give IDPA a false image.

I was informed in a P.M. that my post was removed by a moderator.

This is my last post here............................................

Edited for inappropriate content

Edited September 30, 2005 by jhgtyre

[RickB]

Our range supports IDPA, USPSA, and Cowboy Action. One guy had the brilliant idea of holding a charity match, with stages set up by members of each group, and shot by all using the gear of choice. I didn't hear a peep out of anyone, concerning who was doing it right, or how ridiculous some rule or "tactic" was, because everyone was, at some point, a fish out of water. It was a lot of fun, and a good way to get shooters together, from different disciplines, without any of the baggage that can accompany changing disciplines.

I'm President of the local IDPA club, and have MD'd four state championships; I'm also the shooters rep for the Northwest Section of USPSA (Area 1), and have been shooting IPSC for eight years. At every opportunity, I try to attract shooters to both sports. Some like both, some stick to one only, but I have not seen much "not welcome here" behavior from either group. I will hear the occasional, "When the buzzer goes off, why would I want to go run and hide?" from the ISPC guys, and the IDPA folks will wonder how "practical" is an Open gun and 150 rounds on the belt, but it doesn't seem to be mean-spirited or dismissive, in either case. I think there is a bit of "that's not the way we do it" whenever someone who's really good at one sport brings their skill set to the other, but again, I see it more as "he'll learn . . ." than "cheater" (or "wanker", as the case may be).

[SRT Driver]

Maybe we are fortunate, but many IDPA shooters in my area crossover and vice versa. Both sports have merit and both offer a different set of shooting problems.

A few bashed us -the USPSA guys- in the beginning but that is almost non-existant now (or, at least, more subdued). We just smiled a lot.

Do I really care if some hardcore IDPA shooters make fun or redicule me because I'm a USPSA "stylist." No. I still get to shoot and that's what it's about.

Is one better than the other? Or more "superior."

It's simply a different group with different rules solving the same problem....

getting good hits in the shortest amount of time.

[Nik Habicht]

Earlier today I posted a reply that contained a quote from a poster here that clearly bashed IDPA and the people who particpate. My only response to the quote was that never in all of the IDPA matches I have attended, have I witnessed any of the stereotypes listed in the post and that this type of unsubstantiated rhetoric continues to give IDPA a false image.

I was informed in a P.M. that my post was removed by a moderator.

This more than demonstrates this forum's IPSC/USPSA bias and the lack of common sense and vision by the moderators.

This is my last post here............................................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mr. Mills,

your post (from earlier today) was removed because it directly attacked another member. Such attacks are against forum policy and will not be tolerated. I find it interesting, that after moderating or removing a total of six posts in the last 24 hours, and sending 6 pms to the posters, only you felt compelled to argue the point publicly. I would not normally respond to such a situation publicly, but you put it out here.

I feel compelled to once again redirect the focus of this thread: Namely, what can be done, to make shooter's of one discipline feel more welcome in another discipline's matches.

Let's continue to talk about that, please.

[Mark Perez]

"..It's simply a different group with different rules solving the same problem....

getting good hits in the shortest amount of time." SRTDRIVER

Thank you

Thank you

Thank you

The sooner a 'naysayer' is corrected by his cojorts/squadmates that this is what the games are all about - the bias will eventually disappear.

Is it a mission without end? Probably , but what else are you there for besides the shooting? Score and tape ??

I can only hope..

Until that day

Mark

[MBaneACP]

NIK...now that the thread is winding down, can I do just one little bitty bit of thread drift????

Just one????

Okay...to SmittyFL:

"You like gladiator movies?"

OKAY...I'm done!

mb

[John Dunn]

I speak jive!

[Sam]

I speak jive! 

BTW, jive talkin' is verboten!

A couple of us clearly remember you talkin' some jive at the Casper Challenge back in June. And then there was........ the holster incident. Sorry, man......the preponderance of evidence is reaching a tipping point. .......we may be looking at a match DQ.

[Nik Habicht]

Anybody have anything constructive to add? Lame jokes aren't doing it for me this week....

[dirtypool40]

Mark I am headed out to my first IDPA match in 18 months.  I'll be back with an up to the minute report.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I shot that IDPA match today. here's how it went...

Edited October 3, 2005 by dirtypool40

[AWLAZS]

Hey not much to say DP thats uncommon for you.

[dirtypool40]

ok, smart ass....

actually I was using it as a link to post I am writing about the match. As you have pointed out, it is a long post, so I figured it deserved it's own thread.

I'll drop a link in there soon.

EDITED : Link to report is in...

Edited October 3, 2005 by dirtypool40

[Mark Perez]

"..first IDPA match in 18 months.."

Cool , looking forward to it!

Mark

[Kevin Kline]

Mark I am headed out to my first IDPA match in 18 months.  I'll be back with an up to the minute report.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Eric,

I can tell you Ive shot one IDPA match and that was it for me. I shot it about 4-5 years ago at Ruskin and I was told by several people, dont wear IPSC related shirts or hose anything, regardless how close it is because they will immediately draw their attention to you and you'll be slammed with procedurals.

I went with a regular shirt and pants and acted like a normal person. I didnt hose anything and didnt mention anything about IPSC or that I had any experience with guns at all. Well as it turns out, right before my last stage, another shooter who knew me from IPSC saw me and came over to say hi. He was telling everyone that he knew me from IPSC and that I could really hose. Well, happens I was shooting in the same division as two of the top mucky mucks that have influence in running the clubs. Apparently the win their divisions EVERY time and no one even contests it.

Well, stupid me, Im thinking with only one stage left to go and being in the lead, what can they do to me now to catch me, right?? Well lots apparently. I hosed the last stage and was nailed with 4 procedurals and then another 2 for previous stage, THAT WAS OVER!! I asked how that can happen and was given a sales pitch speech. Of course, it knocked me down enough for those two individuals to beat me.

Ill tell you, that was enough for me. They were going to fix it to win irregardless. It didnt matter they werent the best shooter in that division, but no one else was going to win it but an IDPA shooter or them, thats for sure. After that, I said, no more IDPA, it isnt worth it, there are too many other shooting sports to have fun in and the actual best shooter wins, not fixed like a damn wrestling match!!!!

Damn shame too, since Im a LEO and it probably is better for my job than IPSC, but at least I know Im getting a fair shake and they actually judge you on your shooting skill, no political BS

Good luck brother!!!!!

[mike4045]

I got out of IDPA shooting this year. There were several reasons, most have already been brought up. First and foremost it is just a game. The chance to build a full race open gun came up in Dec last yr and I have gone that route. With the cost related to traveling I don't see many IDPA matches in the future.

My 11 yr old is getting to start shooting with me and has asked about shooting IDPA to start out. I am considering it because it is a slower pace and easier for some people to get started in. I know that last comment will raise some eyebrows, but it is an honest observation. Maybe I can find a sat/sun split for IDPA and IPSC in the same weekend.

One of the clubs I shoot at has really combined well with the IDPA bunch and I am glad to see it. The bashing still does occur.

Mike

[dirtypool40]

Kevin - I had the same experience you did, and I was no where near a GM like you. I left IDPA (after a falling out with the click) and went off to IPSC for almost two years. When I came back I was "the prodigal" and had to be watched closely. I got to eat a -5, FTN on a steel I center punched with 180pf 230 ball, because "we don't play any of that calibration BS gamer" and had guys standing up from the bench after every run to add their $.02 as to where they could reward my speed with penalties. All this because I had squadded with the local hot rock and was winning. And I had a brand new "A" card back then.

Things went much better this time. I asked a lot of questions and made sure I did things the way the guy in front of me did them.

My buddy the MD just called to say I was HOA, which was unexpected considering how I thought I shot. #2 was Massad Ayoob, apparently he makes their monthly almost every time. He wasn't squadded with me, but I would have liked to see him shoot.

I disagree that IDPA is the best thing an LEO can shoot. I think IPSC is better; they generally let YOU determine how to solve the problem and don't dictate tactics. I don't know what YOU do as a cop, but a SWAT entry guys way of doing stuff if going to be different than a motorcycle guy, different than a dog handler etc etc.

I don't mean this to bash IDPA, but the tactics are set and stagnant. It's as though one shooting school took a snap shot of what THEY decided was best and built a match around that. Then they took it national. I'm an instructor for my USG agency and did the instructor course at FLETC. I can't shoot, or reload like they train there, because it's not the way Rauch or Hackathorn want it done. Ask around about the first few big IDPA matches and you'll hear all about the fights that broke out between folks from all the big shooting schools as to who's tactics were the best.

I have plenty of high end "operator" type LEO / MIL friends who shoot, and to a man they prefer IPSC. But I am preaching to the choir, not one of them has the "G" like you do.

USPSA / IPSC has developed the best TECHNIQUES for shooting small arms EVER. And they CONTINUE TO EVOLVE in the crucible of competition. Tactics are up to you and your individual needs.

Besides, speed IS a tactic. Funny aside, today these guys are talking about tactical order on these three targets roughly 7 or 8 yards away. They are really beating on each other about order. They want to go, one each, or this way or moving after the first one. It's getting ridiculous. They guy next to me loading mags, knows me. We've practiced together, an array just like this, only at ten or fifteen. I'm watching the arguing when he punches me on the arm and points to the array; "what's the time between first and last shot if you shoot two each on those targets?"

I thought a second and smiled, seeing his point; "a little less than a second."

Edited October 10, 2005 by dirtypool40

[Kevin Kline]

Kevin - I had the same experience you did, and I was no where near a GM like you.  I left IDPA (after a falling out with the click) and went off to IPSC for almost two years.  When I came back I was "the prodigal" and had to be watched closely.  I got to eat a -5, FTN on a steel I center punched with 180pf 230 ball, because "we don't play any of that calibration BS gamer" and had guys standing up from the bench after every run to add their $.02 as to where they could reward my speed with penalties.  All this because I had squadded with the local hot rock and was winning.  And I had a brand new "A" card back then.

This time though things went much better this time.  I asked a lot of questions and made sure I did things the way the guy in front of me did them.

My buddy the MD just called to say I was HOA, which was unexpected considering how I thought I shot.  #2 was Massad Ayoob, apparently he makes their monthly almost every time.  He wasn't squadded with me, but I would have liked to see him shoot.

I disagree that IDPA is the best thing an LEO can shoot.  I think IPSC is better; they generally let YOU determine how to solve the problem and don't dictate tactics.  I don't know what YOU do as a cop, but a SWAT entry guys way of doing stuff if going to be different than a motorcycle guy, different than a dog handler etc etc. 

I don't mean this to bash IDPA, but the tactics are set and stagnant. It's as though one shooting school took a snap shot of what THEY decided was best and built a match around that.  Then they took it national.  I'm an instructor for my USG agency and did the instructor course at FLETC.  I can't shoot, or reload like they train there, because it's not the way Rauch or Hackathorn want it done.  Ask around about the first few big IDPA matches and you'll hear all about the fights that broke between folks from all the big shooting schools as to who's tactics were the best.

I have plenty of high end "operator" type LEO / MIL friends who shoot, and to a man they prefer IPSC.  But I am preaching to the choir, not one of them has the "G" like you do. 

USPSA / IPSC has developed the best TECHNIQUES for shooting small arms EVER.  And they CONTINUE TO EVOLVE in the crucible of competition. Tactics are up to you and your individual needs.

Besides,  speed IS a tactic.  Funny aside, today these guys are talking about tactical order on these three targets roughly 7 or 8 yards away.  They are really beating on each other about order.  They want to go, one each, or this way or moving after the first one.  It's getting ridiculous.  They guy next to me loading mags, knows me.  We've practiced together, an array just like this, only at ten or fifteen.  I'm watching the arguing when he punches me on the arm and points to the array; "what's the time between first and last shot if you shoot two each on those targets?"

I thought a second and smiled, seeing his point; "a little less than a second."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%. I hope one day it will change, but until then.......

CONGRATS on today though!!!

[ima45dv8]

Besides,  speed IS a tactic. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[MikeFoley]

Funny aside, today these guys are talking about tactical order on these three targets roughly 7 or 8 yards away.  They are really beating on each other about order.  They want to go, one each, or this way or moving after the first one.  It's getting ridiculous.  They guy next to me loading mags, knows me.  We've practiced together, an array just like this, only at ten or fifteen.  I'm watching the arguing when he punches me on the arm and points to the array; "what's the time between first and last shot if you shoot two each on those targets?"

I thought a second and smiled, seeing his point; "a little less than a second."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, this got my attention. I figured A hit splits and transitions for myself at .15 split and .25 transition, .95 total time. 1-1-1 alone would be .5, and the total would be 1.15 using tactical order. So the first guy gets hit once at the same time, the second guy gets hit .15 sooner, and the third guy gets hit .15 sooner. I don't see the advantage to tactical order, unless there are way more three opponents (then you are simply screwed). Also thinking that one shot doesn't deliver the stopping power of two. This is the long way around your obvious point, but thought the mechanics might spell it out a bit.

[dirtypool40]

Yeah, at 7y or so, the draw should be about a second, and total time less than two, figuring around .20 for split or transition, so from first shot to last I should be able to break a second.

[Genghis]

I've been shooting in USPSA, IDPA, and the local steel match since February. My impression has always been that the level of skill at the USPSA matches is higher than either IDPA or steel. One reason I believe that is where I place in the matches.

After eight months I'm still finishing second or third to last in USPSA matches, although my percentage is now around 55 - 65% of the winner's. In the last two steel matches I've finished 5th and 6th out of around 20. In IDPA I actually won a match, even beating the winners of the other divisions.

Also, I initially classified in D class in USPSA Limited. In IDPA I skipped Novice class in both CDP and SSP, classifying as a Marksman in both.

So the same shooter does well at steel and IDPA matches, but not nearly as well in USPSA matches.

Regardless, I enjoy shooting in all three matches. I need work at shooting steel, and that match is a good warmup for the USPSA match (normally held the next day). I really enjoy running and gunning at the USPSA matches, but the IDPA stages give you a nice storyline to get you motivated. I'd have a hard time just shooting USPSA, because after all this work I'm still finishing near the bottom, but I can deal with it because I'm improving and also because my ego gets stroked when I finish higher at the other matches.

[dirtypool40]

Ghengis, I think you're right. I started IDPA fresh out of the academy, and finished 5th, 3rd, 3rd and 1st in the first four matches I shot. Two years later I came out of IDPA a regular local match and State Division match winner, classified as IDPA "Master". I classified as a 70.3% "B" my second match in IPSC and got my butt handed to me for two solid years.

It's hard to compare apples to apples, because in IPSC you can track your improvement more easily with what % you shot in classifiers or in reference to your local hot shot. In IDPA you still chase the local hot rock, and your score on the classification course, but there aren't any percentages, so you just have to kinda guess.

Edited October 4, 2005 by dirtypool40