Production gun wrong start position

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

I see where is coming from. 8.3.1 is the definition of Make Ready and it says "and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing". If that says "loaded and holstered" then holstering the production gun with external hammer cocked and locked is not in compliance with D4 Special Condition #1 "when in ready condition". The ready condition is not defined anywhere as after "Are you ready?". So even holstering with hammer back and safety on after the start signal in production is a bump to open per the "letter of the law" going by that special condition.

We all get the intent of the rule and once again this is proof that the rule book is not always clear and consistent.  Those special conditions should indicate "prior to the start signal" or similar language

 

How are you determining that they are finished preparing?   No where in the rules does it say placing the gun in the holster signals the shooter is finished preparing the gun, assuming the start position is also not a hard end to the preparing for a course of fire, remember the shooter may say "No" when asked "Are You Ready" before the start signal is issued. 

[bret]

26 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also I have personally seen many times when a warning on equipment has corrected the situation. The difference lies in the fact that safety DQ's are generally Made In the Heat of the Moment, and Equipment bumps can be corrected readily before a start of of a course of Fire

Correct

 

What do you do if a production shooter inserts a magazine,  racks the slide, puts the safety on, holsters and assumes the start position per the wsb?

[broadside72]

How are you determining that they are finished preparing?   No where in the rules does it say placing the gun in the holster signals the shooter is finished preparing the gun, assuming the start position is also not a hard end to the preparing for a course of fire, remember the shooter may say "No" when asked "Are You Ready" before the start signal is issued. 

Where does it say that preparing is an exemption to the equipment rule during the course of fire?

Again I get the intent of the rule and I'm have never actually enforced it in the way I am describing. I'm just stating that the actual verbiage says something that goes beyond what was intended

[robchavous]

How are you determining that they are finished preparing?   No where in the rules does it say placing the gun in the holster signals the shooter is finished preparing the gun, assuming the start position is also not a hard end to the preparing for a course of fire, remember the shooter may say "No" when asked "Are You Ready" before the start signal is issued. 

Same scenario, but they don't put the safety on.

Would you DQ them?

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[bret]

5 minutes ago, robchavous said:

Same scenario, but they don't put the safety on.

Would you DQ them?

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If the safety was not applied on a loaded gun with the hammer cocked and the gun was holstered, it is a DQ.

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, bret said:

Correct

 

What do you do if a production shooter inserts a magazine,  racks the slide, puts the safety on, holsters and assumes the start position per the wsb?

Assuming he's a noob, and also assuming he's putting the safety on a da/sa gun and not a striker gun, I'm going to tell him he's needs to start hammer down. If he's been shooting a while, and especially if he is my buddy, I'm going to laugh, start his ass, and put him in open. What you seem to have missed in this whole conversation is it I am talking about noobs and I have said it basically every post. It cost me nothing to give them a little advice, and instead of thinking that RO is a dick, they'll come to me with questions later about what to do and so on. I simply look at that as allowable coaching at a level one match, which is what I've pointed out and talked about throughout this whole thread.

[MikeBurgess]

8 minutes ago, robchavous said:

Same scenario, but they don't put the safety on.

Would you DQ them?

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yes 

specifically covered in the rules and unsafe

[bret]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Assuming he's a noob, and also assuming he's putting the safety on a da/sa gun and not a striker gun, I'm going to tell him he's needs to start hammer down. If he's been shooting a while, and especially if he is my buddy, I'm going to laugh, start his ass, and put him in open. What you seem to have missed in this whole conversation is it I am talking about noobs and I have said it basically every post. It cost me nothing to give them a little advice, and instead of thinking that RO is a dick, they'll come to me with questions later about what to do and so on. I simply look at that as allowable coaching at a level one match, which is what I've pointed out and talked about throughout this whole thread.

What rule says you can treat shooters differently depending on who they are, level of experience or if they are your buddies? 

 

I have seen range officers stop their buddies in matches because they were faulting,  screwed up the stage, dropped a mag and it dumped all the rounds, etc. 

 

None of the above are valid reasons to stop a shooter.

[MikeBurgess]

15 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Where does it say that preparing is an exemption to the equipment rule during the course of fire?

Again I get the intent of the rule and I'm have never actually enforced it in the way I am describing. I'm just stating that the actual verbiage says something that goes beyond what was intended

where does 8.1 say anything about holstered? 

 

I will take this moment to once again try to start a movement to have division compliance rules only apply at the start signal. so anything that happens before or after would not matter. (yes having 11 in the mag at the signal is still bad even if you don't use them  because they were there at the signal)

 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, bret said:

What rule says you can treat shooters differently depending on who they are, level of experience or if they are your buddies? 

 

I have seen range officers stop their buddies in matches because they were faulting,  screwed up the stage, dropped a mag and it dumped all the rounds, etc. 

 

None of the above are valid reasons to stop a shooter.

 

Wow, 8.6.2.1 seems to say exactly that, at a level one people can be coached, or in other words treated different if they request it, and noobs tend to request it, or they would if they new  a little of the rule book, so I assume that they request it, and have never been griped at about it.

 

  ROs who stop their buddies are cause they screwed up are dicks, buddies/experienced shooters tend to get the strictest and harshest interpretation of the rule book around here (and laughed at for good measure.  Except for barneying with an illegal mag, i can guarantee i will never "see" anyone do that at any match ever

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

where does 8.1 say anything about holstered? 

 

I will take this moment to once again try to start a movement to have division compliance rules only apply at the start signal. so anything that happens before or after would not matter. (yes having 11 in the mag at the signal is still bad even if you don't use them  because they were there at the signal)

 

Broadside already tried to start that movement a few post back.  I also think it is a good idea.  So there are 3 haha

[robchavous]

To me the issue is very black and white per the rulebook. If an RO chooses not to enforce things that's 100% on them.

The Production appendix is pretty clear on the ready condition.

6.2.5.1 is clear on what happens for failing to meet equipment requirements during a course of fire and 8.3.1 is clear on when the course of fire begins.

Maybe I'm missing some other relevant rules. I dunno.




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[HCH]

Somebody ask Troy

[MikeBurgess]

23 minutes ago, robchavous said:

To me the issue is very black and white per the rulebook. If an RO chooses not to enforce things that's 100% on them.

The Production appendix is pretty clear on the ready condition.

6.2.5.1 is clear on what happens for failing to meet equipment requirements during a course of fire and 8.3.1 is clear on when the course of fire begins.

Maybe I'm missing some other relevant rules. I dunno.




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the problem is the rules are written by people and people are flawed. 

per a strict reading you cold say any time a DA/SA production shooter applies the safety with the hammer back they are out of division compliance and bump them to open. D4 special conditions just say when in a ready condition not when or where the gun is when in that condition so loaded safety on is out of compliance per the letter of the rules.  nobody is actually enforcing the rules that way so we have a situation where the letter of the rules does not match the intent and we have all decided to use the intent.

 

[broadside72]

48 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

where does 8.1 say anything about holstered? 

 

I will take this moment to once again try to start a movement to have division compliance rules only apply at the start signal. so anything that happens before or after would not matter. (yes having 11 in the mag at the signal is still bad even if you don't use them  because they were there at the signal)

 

 

The firearm ready condition per the WSB is "loaded and holstered" or "unloaded on a table" or similar. So holstered may be part of 8.1.

[NickBlasta]

As far as I understand the gun ready condition rules apply when the gun is holstered. So if it's an unsafe ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety off) it's a DQ, if it's a safe but invalid ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety on, halfcock / no decocker, etc) you go to open on holstering regardless of how the gun is eventually at the beep. Might not be fair, but it's consistent.

Edited October 14, 2019 by NickBlasta

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, NickBlasta said:

As far as I understand the gun ready condition rules apply when the gun is holstered. So if it's an unsafe ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety off) it's a DQ, if it's a safe but invalid ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety on, halfcock / no decocker, etc) you go to open on holstering regardless of how the gun is eventually at the beep. Might not be fair, but it's consistent.

 

So if you need to holster after the start signal, production and CO folks with external hammer need to decock first?

[bret]

1 minute ago, NickBlasta said:

As far as I understand the gun ready condition rules apply when the gun is holstered. So if it's an unsafe ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety off) it's a DQ, if it's a safe but invalid ready condition (loaded / hammer back / safety on, halfcock / no decocker, etc) you go to open on holstering regardless of how the gun is eventually at the beep. Might not be fair, but it's consistent.

So a guy loads a gun, takes a mag out, puts the gun on safe and in a holster, his gun is in the ready condition at that point or can he finish making the gun ready for the stsge?

[bret]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

So if you need to holster after the start signal, production and CO folks with external hammer need to decock first?

No, it just has to be on safe if loaded, or hammer down.

[NickBlasta]

2 minutes ago, bret said:

So a guy loads a gun, takes a mag out, puts the gun on safe and in a holster, his gun is in the ready condition at that point or can he finish making the gun ready for the stsge?

 

You would go to open, yes. You must lower the hammer after barneying and before you holster.

[bret]

5 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You would go to open, yes. You must lower the hammer after barneying and before you holster.

I disagree, as long as you didn't start the stage like that, you would not go to open.

[broadside72]

15 minutes ago, bret said:

I disagree, as long as you didn't start the stage like that, you would not go to open.

 

under what rule? just going by letter of the rulebook not the intent

[bret]

13 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

under what rule? just going by letter of the rulebook not the intent

You are preparing the gun to start the stage, you are still under the make ready command. 

 

The shooter has not completed his make ready.

 

Once the range officer says are you ready, and you don't say no, and he starts the timer, and you react and start the stage,  then you go to open for hammer back safety on in production. 

[driver8M3]

Are you also moving them to open if they accidentally lower the hammer to the half-cocked position and correct it 5 seconds later?

 

Appendix D4

"Manually decocking to the half-cocked 
position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division."

Edited October 14, 2019 by driver8M3

[bret]

I have holstered my production gun hammer down and the holster pushed the slide back enough to put the hammer on half cock, i then lower the hammer all the way down and re holster, is this a bump to open?