Accuracy Problems With 147gr And Tg?

[Rockclimbg]

I've been reloading .45 and .40 on my 650 with no problems, but I can't seem to nail down a good load for 9mm. I am using Zero FMJ 147gr bullets over 3.2 Gr of tightgroup with an OAL of 1.135 FMJ. Velocity is consistently around 910fps but accuracy is all over the place. I have a KKM barrel in one glock that shoots great and a friends G19 also shoots this load great, but other guns are throwing huge groups (6''+@15 yards) but no keyholing, I'm also not getting any pressure signs on the brass. My wifes Sig239 and my glock 34 are all over the place.

I'm using very little crimp now and have done a little experimenting with OAL but had a hard time running anything longer than what I am now because of the chamber length of a Jarvis barrel I have. I would be less confused if all the guns shot like crap but the inconsistency is throwing me.

Anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advanced.

Rockclimbg

[Guy Neill]

Is there any pattern of barrel twist rates - such as fast twists shooting the load well and slow twists not?

If so, faster velocity may help in the slow twists - assuming those are the ones not shooting it well.

Guy

[revchuck]

Is there any pattern of barrel twist rates - such as fast twists shooting the load well and slow twists not?

If so, faster velocity may help in the slow twists - assuming those are the ones not shooting it well.

Guy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Guy - My guess is that the twist isn't the problem. Winchester's old .38 Special "Super Police" load was a 200 grain RNL that went less than 600 fps from a 2" barrel, and had no problems with stabilization with the 1 in 18-3/4" twist. Most 9x19s have a 1 in 10" twist and shoot lighter bullets.

I'd work with different size bullets (.356-.357) first, and maybe play with the overall length too.

[bberkley]

I've been reloading .45 and .40 on my 650 with no problems, but I can't seem to nail down a good load for 9mm.  I am using Zero FMJ 147gr bullets over 3.2 Gr of tightgroup with an OAL of 1.135 FMJ.  Velocity is consistently around 910fps but accuracy is all over the place.  I have a KKM barrel in one glock that shoots great and a friends G19 also shoots this load great, but other guns are throwing huge groups (6''+@15 yards) but no keyholing, I'm also not getting any pressure signs on the brass. My wifes Sig239 and my glock 34 are all over the place.

I'm using very little crimp now and have done a little experimenting with OAL but had a hard time running anything longer than what I am now because of the chamber length of a Jarvis barrel I have.  I would be less confused if all the guns shot like crap but the inconsistency is throwing me.

Anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advanced.

Rockclimbg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Titegroup has a suggested "don't deviate from this length and charge" load data for 147 gr bullets in one of my reloading manuals. From personal experience, I had nothing but problems with westcoast plated 147gr and titegroup, and it wasn't overcrimping-related.

I've had pretty good results with VV N320 with several different bullet weights in both my 9mm and .40.

[Guy Neill]

I would normally agree, but some of the barrel makers have played with other twists, such as 1:32", so it seems it should be examined before being dismissed. It could also relate to the size of the bullet and the bore size. Slugging the bore may also reveal something.

It's also true that some barrels simply do not do well with some bullets. No known reason, they just have specific preferences.

Guy

[Patrick Sweeney]

I worked on a related project for quite some time. I found that some 9mm guns just wouldn't shoot lead bullets with fast powders worth squat. When I went to slower powders (WW-231 was the threshold for most guns) accuracy straightened right out.

Twist rate, bore size, bullet size, hardness, nothing made a difference except powder burn rate.

Now plated isn't lead, but it isn't jacketed, either. Pick a powder at WW-231 or slower burn rate, and try some loads. If accuracy comes back, problem solved. Yes, slowers isn't as good as fast (for this applicaiton) but if the gun tells you it doesn't like fast powders, listen.

Why do they do it? I have some theories, but no proof one way or the other.

[rhyrlik]

Why don't you try 4-4.2grs of Unique w/ WSP?

The load will amaze you.

[docpyzon]

I have had good luck with the 147 JHP Zero's with 3.2gr Titegroup but I run an OAL of 1.1 I have only tried these in my XD Tactical but they fly right for me.

[Kevin Kline]

I havent had any issue with my Zeros at 147, but am switching (mostly for price) to Precision Delta jacketed 147's. Has anyone done this (switched from Zero 147 jacketed to Precision Delta jacketed 147's and had any issues, i.e. zero changed or load changed?

[ghost21]

I havent had any issue with my Zeros at 147, but am switching (mostly for price) to Precision Delta jacketed 147's. Has anyone done this (switched from Zero 147 jacketed to Precision Delta jacketed 147's and had any issues, i.e. zero changed or load changed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GUy here is a load to try in your G34

3.8 grs Vihtavouri N330

Rem 147gr Match bullet

OAL 1.160

I have had much succuess with this load in my G34 and my G17.

On an NRA D-1 target I can keep them all in the X-ring at 25yrds.

I have also used the rainier plated 147's with this same load,and with the same success!

Edited October 4, 2005 by ghost21

[DougCarden]

The load you have should shoot in the G34, period. I have shot that load in a G34, 5in XD, custom STI 9x19, etc....with a 2in or less at 25yds with each gun. Having said that, try loading it to 1.110 and see if that makes any difference. It also makes difference which twist rate you have as well. Some twist rates in the 9mm barrels work better for heavier bullets, some for lighter bullets.

I went through several levels of hell finding accurate 9x19 loads, until I put a new barrel in my STI, then the old loads that wouldnt shoot will now shoot very well.

My practice load is a 147ltc 1.110 with 3.0 TG and I can hit the Bianchi rack at 50yds no problem......If the load works well in several guns then you will have to work up loads in those specific guns...I second the VV330 recommendation(got that load info from Bob Marvel), and also W231. There is a reason that the accuracy guys have used 231 for many years....

[Vlad]

I shoot almost exactly that load, only difference is that use 3.1gr which makes 130pf out of my CZ. I use a Lee FCD to put a medium to heavy crimp. I think a heavier crimp helps with TG which is a very light charge which may be laying all over the place in the case. My theory is that the crimp lets the powder burn more consistently.

Try a heavier crimp and see what happens.

[21 shooter]

I use 3.9 grains of WW WSF with a Valiant 147 FP lead bullet in a Glock 17 and 34. It is very accurate.

[Rockclimbg]

Problem Solved...

Just a little update, I switched to Unique Powder and the groups have tightened up a lot.

Thanks for all the help/advice.

Rockclimbg

[Clay1]

What else did you change? I'm glad things worked out for you. Many times it is a matter of what bullet at what velocity. I find bullet design makes the biggest difference, then velocity then which powder. It's nice to have a clean powder.

I'm wondering if you are using the same bullet at a different velocity. Thanks,

Rick

[harald]

I have had problems with key-holing 147gr. lead bullets.

1-2 out off 6 shots key-hole. I use 310 reloaded to factor 135

My gun is a custom 6" 2011 with a Bar-Sto barrel

Is the 310 powder to fast? The shots that dont key-hole touches almost at 18yards

Edited January 19, 2006 by harald

[revchuck]

What you describe sounds like either undersized bullets or a too-slow rate of twist (unlikely). My Beretta 92 Brigadier did this with 125 grain RNLs, but the same load ran fine through my CZ-75B.

If it works okay with jacketed bullets, try .356-.357 diameter lead bullets. If you have a friend who casts bullets, ask him for a couple of unsized .38/9mm ones, and slug your barrel. Alternately, get a small box of Speer swaged .38 bullets (any flavor except a HBWC) and use one of those. Mike the slug and get your bullets that size or the next one up - for example, if the slug mikes .3567, get your bullets sized to .357.

If you have to get "oversized" bullets to match your groove diameter, load up a dummy round to make sure they still chamber okay before you go hog-wild with the ammo. They should still fit in a standard chamber, but might not in a tight one. If they don't chamber with the right size lead bullet, you're probably stuck with jacketed.

[DougCarden]

Harald, I agree with Revchuck and would also like to add that I think 310 is too fast for lead in 9x19. I would put it up with Bullseye, that meaning it will either work well with lead bullets, or not at all. For lead unless they are really hard (brinell of 18 or higher) I would use something around Titegroup, W231 for powder.

Now dont get me wrong. 310 is the cats buttocks with jacketed bullets when loaded correctly, but the faster powders and lead bullets dont always work well.

Good luck, DougC

Edited January 19, 2006 by DougC

[harald]

I will try my other 2011 in 9mm, this have a 5" Nowlin barrel

Are there a diffrent twist rate in this barrel, I have never had a key-hole with this gun.

I have reloaded only 120gr lead bullets before with 310-320-330

[coldchar]

I've been reloading .45 and .40 on my 650 with no problems, but I can't seem to nail down a good load for 9mm. I am using Zero FMJ 147gr bullets over 3.2 Gr of tightgroup with an OAL of 1.135 FMJ. Velocity is consistently around 910fps but accuracy is all over the place. I have a KKM barrel in one glock that shoots great and a friends G19 also shoots this load great, but other guns are throwing huge groups (6''+@15 yards) but no keyholing, I'm also not getting any pressure signs on the brass. My wifes Sig239 and my glock 34 are all over the place.

I'm using very little crimp now and have done a little experimenting with OAL but had a hard time running anything longer than what I am now because of the chamber length of a Jarvis barrel I have. I would be less confused if all the guns shot like crap but the inconsistency is throwing me.

Anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advanced.

Rockclimbg

[coldchar]

I've been reloading .45 and .40 on my 650 with no problems, but I can't seem to nail down a good load for 9mm. I am using Zero FMJ 147gr bullets over 3.2 Gr of tightgroup with an OAL of 1.135 FMJ. Velocity is consistently around 910fps but accuracy is all over the place. I have a KKM barrel in one glock that shoots great and a friends G19 also shoots this load great, but other guns are throwing huge groups (6''+@15 yards) but no keyholing, I'm also not getting any pressure signs on the brass. My wifes Sig239 and my glock 34 are all over the place.

I'm using very little crimp now and have done a little experimenting with OAL but had a hard time running anything longer than what I am now because of the chamber length of a Jarvis barrel I have. I would be less confused if all the guns shot like crap but the inconsistency is throwing me.

Anyone have any advice?

Thanks in advanced.

Rockclimbg

You might try bumping the velocity a little. I shoot the 151 ranier and was shooting over 3.4 gr tightgroup and switched to a new contained and all of a sudden my accuracy in my Barsto barrel fell apart. I realized the problem was on the original powder I was at 948 fps and it had dropped down to the low 900's. Bumpted the tightgroup a bit until I was back up to the 950 fps and all was good.