Death Stars are stupid, change my mind

[TonytheTiger]

@P.E. Kelley you still around here somewhere? Curious to hear your perspective as both a long time competitor and a person involved with the 3GN show that got so many guys I know hooked on the sport.

[Shaneg91]

TL, DR; design stages so you get what you want. 

 

I haven’t been involved in 3 gun for very long, but I’ve been seeing the same thing. That’s saying a lot, since I shot Olympic/bullseye style rifle and pistol through high school and college (about as monotonous as you could get). 3 gun was always an interest, and I remember watching videos of it since I discovered it in ~2008. I took a 3-4 year hiatus from shooting while stationed at fort hood, but got into 3 gun midway through last year. Since, I’ve competed in 4 majors and a bunch of local matches across Texas, Kentucky, and Georgia. On to my point:

 

Target props are only tools which can be utilized to train skills which are more difficult or costly to train otherwise. A star’s moving plates can be replicated by a paper target on a track to train tracking and shooting a moving target, but is more costly and complex. Having said that, there is a line between using it as a training aid and a crutch. These target arrays should be treated as a standard target, not the focal point of the stage. Clubs are limited in the targetry  they have to employ, and spending $1000+ on a Polish rack vs the equivalent amount of poppers kind of canalizes them in stage design. Is it worth the investment? Depends on the implementation. I think that 8 moving targets are a greater challenge than 8 stationary poppers, but the real treat is having it placed in the middle of a 30 round pistol COF. 

 

My local match directors are great people, and they do a stellar job every month. But they have the same requirements the rest of us do. When time is at a premium, we all look for the simplest solution. After moving back down to GA/AL, I’ve managed to stabilize myself somewhat and come to know the range and MDs there. After shooting a couple technically challenging (but not fresh) stages, I realized I have to take a more active role to further refine and test my skills. 

 

My solution was to be a a more active participant in my local club through designing stages that replicate the skills and challenges of a major match with the equipment available. Combining firsthand experience in the few matches that I’ve shot, and secondhand from footage of older stages on YouTube, I can incorporate the known quantity of targetry the club has in creating new and challenging stages for the monthly matches. This both alleviates the strain the MDs have between matches, and it allows me to tailor stages so that I can refine my deficiencies. 

 

This is is my first big post on this forum, but I’ve been in the shooting sports for a long time. With 3GN falling off and UML rising, this transition period should be a wake up call to all 3 gun shooters. Participation in the sport needs to be active, not passive. The more shooters get involved, the more the sport thrives. Design the stages you want. Don’t just show up and run the course. 

[TonytheTiger]

1 hour ago, Shaneg91 said:

TL, DR; design stages so you get what you want. 

Participation in the sport needs to be active, not passive. The more shooters get involved, the more the sport thrives. Design the stages you want. Don’t just show up and run the course. 

Yeah this is probably the best course of action, I'm going to be talking to some MD's in the near future.

 

But you're probably the first person I've seen advocating the use of these targets as training aids, which is a perspective I hadn't previously considered. I've always seen them as novelties, and I'm lucky in that when I want to practice on a moving target I build one in my backyard. But just like in matches the fun wears off quick for me and resetting them gets to be a chore. Even if I owned a death star to practice on all day I still wouldn't use it.

 

But since you brought up using matches as training, what are your thoughts on the aforementioned challenging stationary targets. The examples of 35+ yard small shotgun plates, 20+ yard 4" pistol steel and 100 yard offhand skinny sammys are all things I've seen recently, and they all turn into " throw a round at it and move on" targets or just spray at it till it falls. They all are outside the realm of probability, usually cause the bottom half of shooters to time out or run dry and in my opinion seem out of place in a game of time. 

 

FWIW I could put together a pretty lengthy video of me successfully engaging all manner of moving or small targets, so this isn't about them hurting my feelings. I just view this game as the Formula 1 of shooting sports and am having a hard time understanding all the speed bumps and potholes intentionally built into the tracks these days.

[Shaneg91]

Personally, I want the stages in a club match to be harder than anything I’d find in bigger matches. 1/4 sized IPSC targets? All day. Shooting a slug at a 50 yard spinner? Yes, please. 30 paper targets requiring 3 shots each? Absolutely. Any perceived increase in difficulty applies across the board, to all competitors. If I make a stage with a dummy drag, I can smoke it but the 70 year old guy will struggle. But when we get to the longe range rifle, he will smoke me because he’s been shooting service rifle with a garand for 50 years. At the end of the day, you’re only competing against yourself.

I, like most people, consider the club matches as practice. The majors are the real match. I don’t care about my placement in practiscore after a monthly match. I’m there to refine skills. If I’m weak at running the rifle offhand, I’ll do that for a match. If there’s a 50 yard slug spinner, I don’t care about the time advantage in skipping it. I want to make it spin. Bottom line: My club affords me dedicated time and targetry to work on the skills that I think need development, within the confines of the stage description. By designing the stage, you only design your own training.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TonytheTiger]

Interesting. Clearly we all have different reasons and expectations of what/why we're doing what we do. 

[Chuck Anderson]

It’s interesting that Kurt sees 3Gun now as more box to box with less options. I had the opposite view. I started in the mid 90’s and most matches were pretty much shoot this with shotgun, go here shoot this with pistol, then go here and shoot rifle. There were some options in style and order, but very rigid about what you had to shoot with. Since 2012 I’ve seen way more options related to what gun to use, and how to shoot stages as a result. The last match I shot I was heavy on pistol, much more so than anyone else because that’s what I’m good at. But there were big time options on which targets to shoot with pistol or shotgun. Rifle you just had to suck it up and shoot 2” targets all day. 

 

As far as stage design it’s definitely regional and dependent on who is designing stages. It’s very easy to help out with some ideas and move that feel one way or the other. Most MDs welcome good stage designs because they have enough work already. 

[kurtm]

Ahem .....3GN started around 2011 or so, just saying.

[Steve RA]

I thought it started - with USPSA, at least - at PASA in 1990 with the first USPSA Championship 3 Gun Match.  I shot it using an AUG, Rem 1100 and a .45 ACP Colt.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Steve RA
Added ACP . Didn't want people to think .45 Single Action!

[TonytheTiger]

5 hours ago, Chuck Anderson said:

It’s interesting that Kurt sees 3Gun now as more box to box with less options. I had the opposite view. 

I was thinking the same thing. In the last two seasons most matches I've shot have had the same stage brief: start anywhere and shoot anything you want other than close steel with rifle.

At first everyone really liked it, now that the shiny wore off it has pros and cons like anything else. One of the biggest downsides is no one shoots pistol unless they have to, otherwise its a rifle/shotgun match.

[iamspartacus]

On most stages those options are an illusion, there is usually one way to shoot it that is faster than every other way and if you don't shoot it that way you're not winning the stage. 

[TonytheTiger]

True story, 8 out of 10 times there really is only one right way to shoot it. But it's nice to think you can do whatever you want.

[kurtm]

That's kinda what I was alluding to. Sure ..wink wink....you can do anything you want! I was thinking more of the old type of free style, like if you didn't want to run way up there you could take the rifle targets from here. If your shotgun/ rifle goes down you can keep going with your pistol, if you wanna chance the real tight no shoot/ head shot from here it could save 3-4 seconds, or you can run over there and it becomes wide open ...kind of thing.

[mpeltier]

Well, I thought it was just me that felt that way...........

[TonytheTiger]

14 hours ago, mpeltier said:

Well, I thought it was just me that felt that way...........

The opinion in the OP? Or one of the many other topics we've covered here?

[mpeltier]

7 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

The opinion in the OP? Or one of the many other topics we've covered here?

The OP. 

[SinistralRifleman]

I like targets like Death Stars, Spinners, Polish Plate Racks, No shoot poppers with clays in the center of them.  It's an actual marksmanship challenge vs testing how well you can memorize and plan your foot work like you're doing a dance routine.  

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm fine with the targets.  I think the OP was trying to articulate the concern comes when the gadgets dominate the course of fire.  Basically doing away with all the other fundamentals of good stage design to just say, look, we bought the thing, we need to use it at every match so we get our money's worth.  Personally, I don't think that has anything to do with the target itself and more to do with those designing the stages.  

[kurtm]

Hmmmm.......best stage ever!! Multiple target engagements, very high round count, all about accuracy. From box A engage the 4 spinners, they all must be spinning to count AND must be spinning in opposite direction of the one next to it. We are going to put a cardboard cutout of a saguaro cactus next to the box so you "know" we put a lot of thought into the stage.......yep gotta love them gimmick targets! 

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, Chuck Anderson said:

 I think the OP was trying to articulate the concern comes when the gadgets dominate the course of fire.  Basically doing away with all the other fundamentals of good stage design to just say, look, we bought the thing, we need to use it at every match so we get our money's worth.  

You're mostly right. At least thats where I was when I started this thread. But the more I thought about it the more I realized I actually dislike the targets to some extent. Shooting them isn't necessarily terrible, but the reset always is.

[TonytheTiger]

6 minutes ago, kurtm said:

Hmmmm.......best stage ever!! Multiple target engagements, very high round count, all about accuracy. From box A engage the 4 spinners, they all must be spinning to count AND must be spinning in opposite direction of the one next to it. We are going to put a cardboard cutout of a saguaro cactus next to the box so you "know" we put a lot of thought into the stage.......yep gotta love them gimmick targets! 

Umm...

Let me know where this match is so I can go to any other one.

[Chuck Anderson]

50 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

You're mostly right. At least thats where I was when I started this thread. But the more I thought about it the more I realized I actually dislike the targets to some extent. Shooting them isn't necessarily terrible, but the reset always is.

 

Agree on reset. How about the 18 plate rack from MGM?  High round count gimmick target, but super easy reset. 

[TonytheTiger]

I had to google it as I've never seen one in the wild. That definitely cuts out reset concerns but goes to the far end of the stupid target realm. If I'm ever running around tearing up a 3 gun stage and suddenly have to stop and shoot a Steel Challenge stage 3.5 times I'll be pissed. There are other shooting sports for those that want to stand still and empty a magazine.

[Ming the Merciless]

I just finished shooting the Limcat UML District 1 match.  The match was very good-NO DEATH STARS although it did have one Texas star, and one polish plate rack, for either shotgun, handgun or PCC and two spinners, one for rifle, the other for handgun or PCC.  Pete Resing designed the stages and they were very reminiscent of the fast speed racer type of early 3 Gun Nation stages that got me shooting 3 Gun.  I really like the USSL/UML stages, lots of choices of which gun to shoot which targets in large shooting areas with a few hard leans, tight shots, and some offhand rifle at 50ish yards on small plates and not a lot of gimmicks.  There should be some youtube videos up by now.

 

So if you're tired of the shoot this from that box 3 Gun, try some USSL/UML matches.

[davsco]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

I had to google it as I've never seen one in the wild. That definitely cuts out reset concerns but goes to the far end of the stupid target realm. If I'm ever running around tearing up a 3 gun stage and suddenly have to stop and shoot a Steel Challenge stage 3.5 times I'll be pissed. There are other shooting sports for those that want to stand still and empty a magazine.

yeah especially that last row with the real tiny triangles, sux standing and shooting at one thing.  i'd much rather have to run from a 6 plate rack to another 6 plate rack to another 6 plate rack.

[Chuck Anderson]

I just shot a match that used one.  Had a couple spots you could engage it from.  In back you could get enough of an angle with it that you could take about 7ish shotgun rounds and mow it down.  Or you could go up if you were shooting PCC Division and have to shoot it 1, 2, 3 each row.  It still gave some options.  Either find that one exact sweet spot and take less rounds, or run up and try to go more quickly.  It was also a very small part of the overall stage.  Say 10-15 seconds if you were really slow, 5 seconds if you were quick.  The stage itself was won in the 90 second range (if memory serves).  If the target is that small of a part of the stage, I have a much easier time justifying it.  Make the stage shorter, and that gadget the all important part, less OK with it.