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Death Stars are stupid, change my mind


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15 minutes ago, davsco said:

yeah especially that last row with the real tiny triangles, sux standing and shooting at one thing.  i'd much rather have to run from a 6 plate rack to another 6 plate rack to another 6 plate rack.

Although I know you're being facetious I still agree with you. Though a stage consisting of 3 plate racks falls squarely in the ultra lazy design category.

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1 minute ago, Chuck Anderson said:

 If the target is that small of a part of the stage, I have a much easier time justifying it.  Make the stage shorter, and that gadget the all important part, less OK with it.  

Agreed. A match I shot Sunday had a death star, but it was a 40ish round all shotgun stage, so the star itself wasn't a drag on reset (it was one of the first targets and got reset while the shooter moved forward) and it didn't make or break the stage.

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My take on stage design is that it's all about balance.  Gadgets are fine as long as they don't dominate.  Same with box to box, standards, hoser, precision etc.  I shot a match recently where almost every one of the rifle targets was a mini target with a no shoot covering all but the head.  Basically you had a 2" square to shoot at, and if you missed low, which almost everyone did, it was a huge penalty.  It took the fun out of shooting rifle at the match.  Do it on a stage or two, or even a target or two on every stage, no issues.  But when that is the only thing tested with the rifle it becomes a bit of a snooze.  

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Speaking of no shoots, I can't help but wonder if the MD at Sundays match had seen all my whining in this thread. I haven't seen a no shoot at his match in quite a while but they were present Sunday, in just enough quantity to mix it up without killing the fun. Also had aerial clays and more pistol shooting than usual. It was a pretty well balanced match and the presence of the death star didn't hurt at all.

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1 hour ago, Ming the Merciless said:

I just finished shooting the Limcat UML District 1 match.  The match was very good-NO DEATH STARS although it did have one Texas star, and one polish plate rack, for either shotgun, handgun or PCC and two spinners, one for rifle, the other for handgun or PCC.  Pete Resing designed the stages and they were very reminiscent of the fast speed racer type of early 3 Gun Nation stages that got me shooting 3 Gun.  I really like the USSL/UML stages, lots of choices of which gun to shoot which targets in large shooting areas with a few hard leans, tight shots, and some offhand rifle at 50ish yards on small plates and not a lot of gimmicks.  There should be some youtube videos up by now.

 

So if you're tired of the shoot this from that box 3 Gun, try some USSL/UML matches.

I'll look for some vids, that sounds like a good time. 

UML is popping up in my area and I'm warming up to it, but to be honest the stage designs are pretty similar to pre-UML. Not that thats a bad thing.

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1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

Although I know you're being facetious I still agree with you. Though a stage consisting of 3 plate racks falls squarely in the ultra lazy design category.

not facetious, i love running around and shooting stuff, hate standing still and shooting stuff (double or triple layer plate rack, spinner).

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23 minutes ago, davsco said:

not facetious, i love running around and shooting stuff, hate standing still and shooting stuff (double or triple layer plate rack, spinner).

I thought I was picking up on sarcasm, my bad. 

 

Agreed on stationary shooting being boring.

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I think goofy targets (spinners, stars, etc.) are fine, but they don’t by themselves make a good stage and too many of them can ruin a stage. 

 

Either your stage design is good or it isn’t. Throwing props at a stage doesn’t always make it better. 

 

That said, occasionally a stand and shoot stage using those kinds of targets can be interesting, as long as it isn’t overused. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/25/2019 at 9:08 AM, kurtm said:

What's an @kurtm????

When M.D.s quit designing stages around What facet of shooting do I want to test with this stage/ scenario based stages, and started thinking Round Count was king was when it started to slide. Anymore I see most 3-gun matches as, " hey to be better and bigger" we need stupid amounts for rounds. Stages designs that have this as their base......go scatter out a bunch of targets.....make it about 50 rounds of pistol, 30 rounds of shotgun and 70 rounds of rifle. Bigger is better! Well now reset raised it's timely head so these same M.D.s said we need a target system to suck up a bunch of rounds and won't need much reset ......hence crap targets like spinners, polish ate racks etc. And the idea of carrying all 3 guns on you came in vogue too, when would you ever sling a rifle to shoot a shotgun???? Once again no thought to what you want to test, just get that round count up and scatter a bunch of crap out there.

This Cat knows!  And I agree!!!

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  • 4 months later...
On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:12 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I've been feeling pretty melancholic about 3 gun lately without being able to put my finger on why. Then a couple days back it hit me. Here's a short story to explain my theory.

 

 

So while trying to explain to someone what 3 gun was I stumbled onto some YouTube videos of the 3 Gun Nation episodes from a few years back. Damn those looked like fun stages, no wonder I had to try 3 gun myself. Feeling nostalgic about my first couple years I ended up watching my old stage videos. More awesome looking stages that I'd love to shoot again. 

 

There were basically two match styles in my area at the time. Wannabe 3GN matches, lots of targets, lots of movement, aerial clays, hoser paper as far as the eye could see. Then there were the Saturday USPSA matches turned into Sunday 3 gun by adding more targets, further targets, dump barrels and clays. Lots of movement, lots of walls, tons of activated targets (clamshells, drop turners etc.) even a few memory stages. 

 

But conspicuously absent were circus targets. Death stars, polish plate racks, etc. When the stage designer wanted to make you work he threw in no-shoots, hidden targets, hard leans or low ports. All good challenging stuff that kept it from being a complete hose fest.

 

Now stage designs seem to consist of go here and shoot some targets then DEATH STAR! It seems that good stage design went out the window with the advent of circus stuff as the centerpiece of every stage. And once one match bought some spinny s#!t they all had to have them. When thats not an option the next best thing to slow everyone down is walls of 4" 25 yard pistol steel, maybe a 100 yard offhand skinny sammy. Hard to have fun shooting fast when you find yourself in a bullseye match.

 

Maybe I'm just being whiny or maybe this lack of stage creativity is just a regional thing, possibly caused by burnt out or understaffed match directors. I didn't get into 3 gun to shoot circus targets or precision pistol stuff. I want to drag race with guns.

I don't think your being whiny on this... I like to think that the term Practical shooting should be just that. nothing about a star that spins and swings is practical and it does not prove that you are a better shooter then the guy behind you.  I don't mind a texas star but when the polish plates came out and the death star I just cringed.... my thoughts are....., this is how the leaderboard will be separated for the top 5 shooters in each class.  I like to say the long range stage should be the deciding factor. now I feel whiny haha I'm done.

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I kinda forgot about this thread. Since I posted it my favorite local match directors have decided to throw in the towel. They did a great job and a ton of work for the last six years and are understandably ready to move on. No one has stepped up to carry the torch and I'm considering volunteering to run it. I've spent the last couple weeks drawing up exactly the kind of stages that first got me hooked on 3 gun, so if I take the position we'll get to see if other people like the same high speed blasting that I do.

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On 5/23/2019 at 10:12 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I've been feeling pretty melancholic about 3 gun lately without being able to put my finger on why. Then a couple days back it hit me. Here's a short story to explain my theory.

 

 

So while trying to explain to someone what 3 gun was I stumbled onto some YouTube videos of the 3 Gun Nation episodes from a few years back. Damn those looked like fun stages, no wonder I had to try 3 gun myself. Feeling nostalgic about my first couple years I ended up watching my old stage videos. More awesome looking stages that I'd love to shoot again. 

 

There were basically two match styles in my area at the time. Wannabe 3GN matches, lots of targets, lots of movement, aerial clays, hoser paper as far as the eye could see. Then there were the Saturday USPSA matches turned into Sunday 3 gun by adding more targets, further targets, dump barrels and clays. Lots of movement, lots of walls, tons of activated targets (clamshells, drop turners etc.) even a few memory stages. 

 

But conspicuously absent were circus targets. Death stars, polish plate racks, etc. When the stage designer wanted to make you work he threw in no-shoots, hidden targets, hard leans or low ports. All good challenging stuff that kept it from being a complete hose fest.

 

Now stage designs seem to consist of go here and shoot some targets then DEATH STAR! It seems that good stage design went out the window with the advent of circus stuff as the centerpiece of every stage. And once one match bought some spinny s#!t they all had to have them. When thats not an option the next best thing to slow everyone down is walls of 4" 25 yard pistol steel, maybe a 100 yard offhand skinny sammy. Hard to have fun shooting fast when you find yourself in a bullseye match.

 

Maybe I'm just being whiny or maybe this lack of stage creativity is just a regional thing, possibly caused by burnt out or understaffed match directors. I didn't get into 3 gun to shoot circus targets or precision pistol stuff. I want to drag race with guns.

primarily why I lost interest in 3gun also.  Running from one bay to another, then over the berm to another bay to shoot 400 yards got old.

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3 hours ago, stick said:

primarily why I lost interest in 3gun also.  Running from one bay to another, then over the berm to another bay to shoot 400 yards got old.

I agree with you on this but it was more practical to do that kinda stuff then guess your way around a death star.  I like getting my heart rate up before i shot long distance because I'm not a sniper...  I think if you ever got in a position where you had to defend yourself from zombies your heart rate would be sky high.  so i think running and gunning and up and over the berms isn't to big of a deal.  

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I could see doing a berm climb every match getting old, but I'm far more likely to enjoy that vs. standing in front of a single goofy target and dumping a magazine at it. 

If I've learned anything from this thread and the last month of contemplating running a match, its that you can't please everybody.

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On 10/25/2019 at 6:41 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I kinda forgot about this thread. Since I posted it my favorite local match directors have decided to throw in the towel. They did a great job and a ton of work for the last six years and are understandably ready to move on. No one has stepped up to carry the torch and I'm considering volunteering to run it. I've spent the last couple weeks drawing up exactly the kind of stages that first got me hooked on 3 gun, so if I take the position we'll get to see if other people like the same high speed blasting that I do.

Please share some of your designs if you do this.  I like what you're getting at in this thread.  

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9 hours ago, farinx said:

Please share some of your designs if you do this.  I like what you're getting at in this thread.  

Next on my agenda is learning how to use SketchUp so my drawings are able to be interpreted by others. If I get it deciphered I'll post some up here.

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37 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Next on my agenda is learning how to use SketchUp so my drawings are able to be interpreted by others. If I get it deciphered I'll post some up here.

 

Copy and pasting props is the easiest way to do it. Dont use the move tool. Just cut and paste stuff into place. It stays on the axis you want it on more regularly.

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8 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

 

Copy and pasting props is the easiest way to do it. Dont use the move tool. Just cut and paste stuff into place. It stays on the axis you want it on more regularly.

Thanks for the tip Max. Lewis said something about that but I didn't catch it all.

Maybe if I can build some badass stages my favorite USPSA GM will come back...

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35 minutes ago, toothandnail said:

Death star is an easy target, do you also complain about a normal star?  How about a swinger? 

Haha, says a guy that owns his own DS...

I didn't re-read this whole thread but I don't remember saying it was a hard target. I said it was a stupid target. If that was all you gathered from this whole thread you owe your 2nd grade teacher an apology. Seriously. She deserves it.

 

For every time a DS has bruised my ego I've made it my bitch 5 other times. Thats not what this thread is about. I like swingers, drop turners, clamshells etc. but they can hurt reset and cause some competitive equity issues. I think spinners are usually a boring no value added part of a stage. I've barely seen a Texas Star since the advent of the DS.

 

I have witnessed several new shooters finish a DS stage and immediately say they won't be coming back. So it definitely isn't growing the sport. Maybe they were destined to quit anyway but we'll never know.

 

And for every time I've seen a DS/TS, spinner, polish plate rack etc. implemented well I've seen it used poorly 3 times. Shotgun spinners so far out they will barely go over with PS and a full choke and most shooters don't even have a chance. Rifle spinners so far out hot 77gr loads won't even wiggle them. Once everyone figured out the DS all the sudden MD's put barrels in front of half the plates to make it more stupid/boring/ammo wasting. And thats before you talk about target maintenance or lack of. Loose bolts, missing bolts, no grease, sand in mechanisms or bearings all add up to wildly different target presentations from one shooter to the next. Don't forget that there is always a couple guys per squad that could screw up a wet dream and manage to reset the target back asswards. 

 

Paper, falling steel, clays and even plate racks don't seem to have any of these problems and all contribute to fast, easy and simple reset, which is better for shooters and staff.

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13 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Thanks for the tip Max. Lewis said something about that but I didn't catch it all.

Maybe if I can build some badass stages my favorite USPSA GM will come back...

 

Unloaded shotgun starts sent me and my xrail to loserville. If you can remove those maybe Id come back. 🤣

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On 10/30/2019 at 7:47 PM, TonytheTiger said:

Haha, says a guy that owns his own DS...

I didn't re-read this whole thread but I don't remember saying it was a hard target. I said it was a stupid target. If that was all you gathered from this whole thread you owe your 2nd grade teacher an apology. Seriously. She deserves it.

 

For every time a DS has bruised my ego I've made it my bitch 5 other times. Thats not what this thread is about. I like swingers, drop turners, clamshells etc. but they can hurt reset and cause some competitive equity issues. I think spinners are usually a boring no value added part of a stage. I've barely seen a Texas Star since the advent of the DS.

 

I have witnessed several new shooters finish a DS stage and immediately say they won't be coming back. So it definitely isn't growing the sport. Maybe they were destined to quit anyway but we'll never know.

 

And for every time I've seen a DS/TS, spinner, polish plate rack etc. implemented well I've seen it used poorly 3 times. Shotgun spinners so far out they will barely go over with PS and a full choke and most shooters don't even have a chance. Rifle spinners so far out hot 77gr loads won't even wiggle them. Once everyone figured out the DS all the sudden MD's put barrels in front of half the plates to make it more stupid/boring/ammo wasting. And thats before you talk about target maintenance or lack of. Loose bolts, missing bolts, no grease, sand in mechanisms or bearings all add up to wildly different target presentations from one shooter to the next. Don't forget that there is always a couple guys per squad that could screw up a wet dream and manage to reset the target back asswards. 

 

Paper, falling steel, clays and even plate racks don't seem to have any of these problems and all contribute to fast, easy and simple reset, which is better for shooters and staff.

"new" shooters that quit because of 1 or 2 hard targets, will also quit cause it's too cold/hot, or too many rounds, not enough rounds, too much steel, too much paper, don't like the MD, or squad mates, etc, etc, etc.
Poor stage design is , poor stage design, if they don't have a "stupid" target they  will  do it with paper.  I've seen plenty of those.
So many guys only want paper at 3-7 yds so they can "shoot fast" , and hate anything that is a challenge. I steer clear of those type of matches.

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14 hours ago, toothandnail said:

"new" shooters that quit because of 1 or 2 hard targets, will also quit cause it's too cold/hot, or too many rounds, not enough rounds, too much steel, too much paper, don't like the MD, or squad mates, etc, etc, etc.
Poor stage design is , poor stage design, if they don't have a "stupid" target they  will  do it with paper.  I've seen plenty of those.
So many guys only want paper at 3-7 yds so they can "shoot fast" , and hate anything that is a challenge. I steer clear of those type of matches.

All valid points. So maybe the question is how do you balance match difficulty so the experienced guys that want a challenge are happy and the hosers/new guys are too. At the rate 3 gun is dying off maybe we need to lean towards the majority if we want matches to continue, even if that means dumbing things down for the top 10%.

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