Extractor tuning question

[ncrivello]

My 9mm RO is experiencing extraction issues.  It also doesn't seem to have a consistent ejection pattern. 

 

Extractor tuning approaches seem to vary depending on the source.  Adam at Atlas Gun Works has a video where he demonstrates the "shake" test to see if the extractor is too tight or loose.  A web search and survey of youtube videos yielded the discovery of the Weigand tension gauge.  I ordered that and testing seems to yield a pull weight of <8oz vs the targeted 25-28oz.  

 

I have an Aftec on order, but could you guys tell me if the existing extractor really should be what Weigand suggests?  I'm having difficulty using the slide to bend the extractor enough to obtain the desired tension; is it advisable to use a vise or is a specialty jig like the one Weigand sells necessary?   

[yigal]

Weigand  jig  is the best solution for regular extractor type for u.

for this type extractor  only without damaging the jig or slide . i don't like to bend extractors in slides. now 21 century 

Edited April 18, 2019 by yigal

[Don_B]

Yes tune it by either method. It is way too loose and that is why you are having those issues. 

[zzt]

I use the 10-8 Armorer's block or the slide to tension extractors.  Since you have ordered an Aftec, remember the have to be fit.  They are not drop in.

[JMike]

I agree with the comments above, I also use the Weigand jig. 

[ncrivello]

So I have the aftec extractor in hand.  I'm fitting a new firing pin stop per the Aftec instructions.  Looks to to be sized correctly; without the extractor in place, it slides in and out with a snug fit to the slide.  With the extractor in place, the fps is way to tight.  The extractor is oriented straight up and down.  I can't quite decide where the fps needs to be massaged in order to get correct fitment.  

 

 Any tips on how to make this work?  

[BrianATL]

Brazoscustom has a very informative write up on their website

[zzt]

This ^^^^.  However, if the fps already slides into the stop, the problem is with the extractor.  If you have radiused the corners of the fps as instructed, you are done with the fps.  Any other material should be taken off the extractor slot.  Which side you take it off of depends on where the hook stands from the breech face.  Or, you may have to take some off the back of the slot.

[ltdmstr]

21 hours ago, BrianATL said:

Brazoscustom has a very informative write up on their website

 

Some disagree with the advice in that piece re: having the extractor hook contacting the case recess.  It's pretty simple to set up the extractor to work properly and 100% reliably without doing that.  Plus your rounds will feed smoother and your brass won't get gouged up. 

[jcc7x7]

9 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Some disagree with the advice in that piece re: having the extractor hook contacting the case recess.  It's pretty simple to set up the extractor to work properly and 100% reliably without doing that.  Plus your rounds will feed smoother and your brass won't get gouged up. 

You may have to remove some material from the pad just behind the hook to get the proper "grip" on the case.

If you're new to 1911/2011 guns keep this thought in mind. "NOTHING IS DROP IN!" 

If you think like that you will be better served in whatever upgrade or service you're doing on your pistol.

[ncrivello]

Okay, it’s in; The fps hadn’t been massaged enough per the Aftec directions.  

 

Next at question is in regard to tension.  The Weigand gauge comes back with 10oz.  The rounds seem to cycle through manually ok.  I have both springs installed.  Does the aftec need to be bent/tuned further, or should I just go shoot it?

[zzt]

You should not need to bend the Aftec.  If the tension is too much, compress the springs as detailed in the instructions.  If still too much, only use one spring for a while.

[Gary1911A1]

Get the Weigand Extractor Jig.

 

[zzt]

16 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Some disagree with the advice in that piece re: having the extractor hook contacting the case recess.  

 

ABSOLUTELY.   You should not lump all extractors in the same group.  Aftecs are different.  So are EGW HD extractors.  With the EGW HD, if you adjust it so that the hook touches the cartridge, you have way too much tension.  The claw will grip the case so tightly the ejector will not be able to kick it out.  In fact, the common shake test for extractor tension is no use for and EGW HD.  EGW wants between .065" and .068" of space between the breech face and the hook.  That's way thicker than the rim.  So if you are trying to adjust it to the shake test, you'll drive yourself bonkers.   Adjusted properly, it won't hold a empty case for more than one shake.  That's if you can get the case to stay in at all.  It will still extract fine.

[ncrivello]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

You should not need to bend the Aftec.  If the tension is too much, compress the springs as detailed in the instructions.  If still too much, only use one spring for a while.

 

I have both springs in.  Per the Weigand gauge, it’s right about 10oz vs the 25-28oz Weigand says is desirable.  In other words, the Weigand gauge thinks there is not enough tension.  Do their numbers apply to the Aftec extractor?

 

 

[zzt]

No.  Weigand assumes a conventional, one piece extractor that acts as a spring.  Even though all but one are no longer made of spring steel, they still act that way.  To tension a conventional extractor, you bend it.  When you get it just right the case will eject the same way each time, and the extractor will slip over a chambered round.  The 25~28 that Weigand states is the correct amount for the typical tool steel extractor.

 

An Aftec extractor body is rigid and cannot act as a spring.  That's why you relieve the fps and install springs in the middle.  An Aftec rocks back and forth on the spring cover producing a similar effect as a conventional extractor.  Since the Aftec body does no bending, it last much longer than a conventional tool steel extractor, which must be retensioned often.

 

If you bend the body of an Aftec, it will no longer work as designed.  Forget the Weigand gauge and go shoot it.

[ncrivello]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

No.  Weigand assumes a conventional, one piece extractor that acts as a spring.  Even though all but one are no longer made of spring steel, they still act that way.  To tension a conventional extractor, you bend it.  When you get it just right the case will eject the same way each time, and the extractor will slip over a chambered round.  The 25~28 that Weigand states is the correct amount for the typical tool steel extractor.

 

An Aftec extractor body is rigid and cannot act as a spring.  That's why you relieve the fps and install springs in the middle.  An Aftec rocks back and forth on the spring cover producing a similar effect as a conventional extractor.  Since the Aftec body does no bending, it last much longer than a conventional tool steel extractor, which must be retensioned often.

 

If you bend the body of an Aftec, it will no longer work as designed.  Forget the Weigand gauge and go shoot it.

 

Thats a great explanation, thanks.  

[ncrivello]

Put about 350 rounds through during practice today; not a single failure to extract!  Had about three failures to feed, which is new.  These required a very light tap to the back of the slide and it went straight into battery.  Both springs are installed in the Aftec.

 

1. Option one is remove a spring and see if the Ftf goes away.

2. Option two is clean up/polish the bottom of the extractor so it picks up and feeds the rounds consistently.  

 

What say you?

 

Edit:  the Aftec directions talk about compressing the springs with a caliper in order to reduce tension.  Has this worked well for anyone?  I’m probably going to futz with the springs, trying to decide whether to compress the one spring (or both) vs removal of on altogether as many have done.  

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by ncrivello

[muncie21]

If removing the second spring doesn't make a difference you can always put it back in.  Polishing the extractor....no undoing that

[zzt]

Compressing the springs per instructions does help.  You were supposed to do that before your put them in the first time.

 

You can certainly try removing one of the springs and see if that helps.  There may be other reasons for the FTF.  The very first thing you want to check is how much room there is between the breech face and the hook.  I just sent an Aftec back because it was machined incorrectly.  When properly installed, there was not enough room between the breech face and the hook to allow a round to slide under.  Even if your extractor is machined correctly, the slide might be off.  So check.

 

If you bent the extractor while you were doing the Weigand test, bend it back to normal.

 

Now slip an empty case under the hook and center it in the breech face.  What if anything is touching the case?  In an ideal world, only the flat of the extractor is touching the rim of the case.  The hook touches nothing.  If something else is touching, decide what to do about it.

 

Next is recoil spring.  If too heavy the slide will short stroke and there may not always be enough time for the next round to rise and be stripped.  If too weak (and the slide is heavy) it may not have enough force to always fully close the slide.  Also be sure your grip is strong.  Limp wristing the gun is a sure way to get a ftf.

[ncrivello]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Compressing the springs per instructions does help.  You were supposed to do that before your put them in the first time.

 

You can certainly try removing one of the springs and see if that helps.  There may be other reasons for the FTF.  The very first thing you want to check is how much room there is between the breech face and the hook.  I just sent an Aftec back because it was machined incorrectly.  When properly installed, there was not enough room between the breech face and the hook to allow a round to slide under.  Even if your extractor is machined correctly, the slide might be off.  So check.

 

If you bent the extractor while you were doing the Weigand test, bend it back to normal.

 

Now slip an empty case under the hook and center it in the breech face.  What if anything is touching the case?  In an ideal world, only the flat of the extractor is touching the rim of the case.  The hook touches nothing.  If something else is touching, decide what to do about it.

 

Next is recoil spring.  If too heavy the slide will short stroke and there may not always be enough time for the next round to rise and be stripped.  If too weak (and the slide is heavy) it may not have enough force to always fully close the slide.  Also be sure your grip is strong.  Limp wristing the gun is a sure way to get a ftf.

 

To be fair the directions state to compress the springs if too much tension is present.  I'll try compressing them as per the directions.  

 

The round is able to slide under the hook.  The hook only makes contact with the round on the flat face; but not on the rim.  It makes contact with the vertical portion of the extraction groove, if that makes sense.  I didn't bend the extractor at all.  

 

I initially set this gun up with a 9lb recoil spring and moved to a 10lb spring when first encountering the FTE issue without completely understanding what was wrong.  It ran fine with the 9lb spring until the FTE's started.  Perhaps I'll put it back in?  

[ncrivello]

Here's a few pictures. is this desirable?

Edited April 25, 2019 by ncrivello

[zzt]

There is too much tension.  The nose of the extractor is hitting the extraction groove of the case, and hard by the looks of it.  Compress the springs and try again.  If that doesn't work, take one string out and test.  If that doesn't do it, you'll have to take material off the front of the nose.  Be careful when you do that, and don't get impatient.  Chances are when you take a little off (say .005") the extractor will move into the case more.  That's okay, and the pressure on the case will have been reduced.  Take a little more off and check again.  Do the shake test with an empty case inserted.  5-6 shakes before the case falls out is good.  More than that, you have too much tension.  Less that that is okay, but not ideal.

[ncrivello]

So I could use a little more help.

 

Aftec is in with one spring and with what looks like the right amount of tension.  I'm experiencing what I think is an ammo problem.  

 

The gun is extracting and feeding fine but I encountered 4-5 failures to return to battery during my class with Tim Herron this weekend.  This was out of about ~550 rounds fired.  I had to hold the slide with my weak hand and hit the backstrap hard in order to get the round out.   I also had 3 light primers strikes.  

 

I don't think this is a result of a dirty gun, recoil spring, hitting the slide, or extractor since I had to exert force to get the round out.  Is that a fair assumption? 

 

Reloads are using mixed range brass, 125gr blue bullets, CCI 500 small primers and 4.0gr of titegroup.  Target coal is ~1.14", this varies to as much as 1.148" due to the range brass I think.  I also experienced the same return to battery problem twice during a practice session last week out of ~300 rounds fired.  

 

I loaded about ~700 for the class and actually plunk tested all of them, with a ~8% failure rate.  What I'm finding is that some rounds will fail the plunk test, and some will fail the case gauge but not the other way around.  I'm not sure how to address the problem.

 

I have a Dawson extended firing pin, and the primers that didn't lite off appeared to be seated all the way.

 

 How can I get this squared away?  

 

Thanks!  

[BrianATL]

Undersized die