john flentz Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 10-4, Duly noted. A pic is worth a lot of bandwidth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Thanks for posting.. now we can understand what we are talking about... that is " lots of wear" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john flentz Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Here's the series of photos showing grinding and recountouring of the trigger guard area of Adam Tyc's pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Well, that is clearly not normal wear and tear. (I now see what people are worked up about, and why it is still a point of conversation.) To be honest, I am less concerned about a shooter breaking the edge of their trigger guard, than I am about limited availability Production guns that have been shot. (Yeah, I feel the 5 inch 5906 from the Performance Shop might fall into that category...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Gosh, you'd think he'd at least wipe some cold blue on it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I liked Julie's comment that she'd never had that much wear on a trigger guard before. I too have shot a few rounds through guns and have never seen that type of wear. Unless I took a dremel to it that is . . . Interestingly no other area's that are visible on the gun have similar amounts of wear which I would think there would be if in fact the wear was as a result of shooting the blaster On the flip side I can't imagine a top notch competitor doing something silly like that which could potentially impact his chances at winning a world title. Doesn't make much sense when he's so damn good that the trigger guard being ground down or not wouldn't impact his ability to shoot it one bit. Interesting. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Gosh, you'd think he'd at least wipe some cold blue on it...... Maybe he didn't bother coz he had nothing to hide? If any one seriously thinks that a guy who has a chance to win Production at a world shoot is gonna show up with a gun that screams "examine me" needs their head examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I had the pleasure of shooting w/ Julie while she was in the AMU, and I was still in Atlanta. She was always extremely nice, and showed good integrity. I have no doubt that she felt she was making the right move in filing the arbitration - and it would seem from the pics above that she was right on target. It's easy to see how it could be taken the wrong way, given her relationship to the other top seed in the division, of course... I don't think that was the case, at least based on my past experience with her. I can't find a right side pic of the CZ 85 Combat from the factory. Perhaps someone will post a pic of theirs for comparison? My experience w/ CZ style pistols is that, more often than not, the steel in those frames are "harder than the hinges on the gates of Hell". Ain't no way it would wear like *that*, even after 100s of thousands of rounds and more dryfiring than one could count. If the CZs are made of steel so soft that it would wear away like that, the slide stop holes, and the frame rails would be so damned peened after 100 rounds that the gun would be useless. Come on... Bluing worn off is one thing, but that bevel certainly looks strange... Top shooters need to be able to deal with whatever's thrown their way. Full disclosure (ie, allowing people to look at the gun or take pictures of it) prevents this sort of thing, regardless of what's going on. Sounds like Adam has had bad "handling" from his "manager". If the gun truly is stock, they could have defused the whole thing by simply being polite and allowing inspection. Instead, it tends to appear that there's something to be hidden. j1b is right on the mark, too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Don't get me wrong; I agree that anyone of his caliber as a shooter, who can win a World title, isn't going to win or lose due to a little "wear" or whatever on his pistol..... In fact, I think its tragic that the CZ team is getting so much heat for their success, whether its Adam for his gun (not even an SP-01, but a CZ85 and evidently NOT the one in the above photos (an SP-01) according to Pinto), and the other shooters with SP-01s... sure they are nice guns, but they just aren't that much better than any other Production gun, I've shot one. These guys are winning because they are good shooters. EDITED : Evidently Adam did shoot an SP-01? VP was wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horst Wittmann Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Don't get me wrong; I agree that anyone of his caliber as a shooter, who can win a World title, isn't going to win or lose due to a little "wear" or whatever on his pistol.....In fact, I think its tragic that the CZ team is getting so much heat for their success, whether its Adam for his gun (not even an SP-01, but a CZ85 and evidently NOT the one in the above photos (an SP-01) according to Pinto), and the other shooters with SP-01s... sure they are nice guns, but they just aren't that much better than any other Production gun, I've shot one. These guys are winning because they are good shooters. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is so easy!!!!!!!! Lots of DVC - Horst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (not even an SP-01, but a CZ85 and evidently NOT the one in the above photos (an SP-01) according to Pinto), <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It *is* an SP-01 in Flentz's pics, isn't it? Hmmm. We still don't know what the thing looks like... The pistol above still would not appear to be legal for Production, however.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Thanks for the picture John, now we all know what the fuss is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolJim Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Is that the gun Adam used at the worlds or not? It doesn't look like a CZ85. It also doesn't look legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 John, Was this picture taken at WS and was this the gun that Adam used at WS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 If, as Vince Pinto has suggested, the gun Adam was shooting was a CZ-85 Combat, the pics above aren't from the WS, as that's a long dustcover gun w/ a light rail. However, it still doesn't look legal to me... and see my previous post about my impressions of how a pistol could "wear" like that. It would appear that Adam has at least shot an illegal pistol in the past, but I don't have all the details and wasn't there, so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Wow...and all these years I've been forced to endure blisters where my hand contacts the underside of the trigger guard . Gotta get me one of those guns where the metal is softer than human flesh !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john flentz Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 These and the other photos posted are of the gun used by Adam Tyc at World Shoot XIV, taken on stage 7, Saturday, August 27, 2005, at about 4:00 PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 John Flentz wrote: "Here's the series of photos showing grinding and recountouring of the trigger guard area of Adam Tyc's pistol." "grinding and recountouring" - that is a serious accusation; it has also been proven FALSE. The Arbitration committee is what we call in law, a "finder of fact" (like a Judge). The fact is: the gun was examined and declared legal by the finder of fact. They examined, you did not. Therefore, as a matter of fact, it was NOT modified in violation of the rules and you are factually incorrect when you accuse the competitor of "grinding and recountouring". All I see in the photo is some blueing wear. Moreover, are those who still bring this matter up (even though it is settled under the rules) asserting that Adam beat the rest of the field due to the alleged "grinding and recountouring"? Is that all that seperated his win from your loss? C'mon! Give this junior some credit for beating you! This is all starting to really sound like sour grapes. Moreover, Flex wrote: ""To be honest, I am less concerned about a shooter breaking the edge of their trigger guard, than I am about limited availability Production guns that have been shot. (Yeah, I feel the 5 inch 5906 from the Performance Shop might fall into that category...) " Well, how about it? I think maybe the wrong gun was protested. On second thought, let's just move on for pete's sake. This photo posting and Monday morning quarter-backing (against a junior no less) is all becomming very unsportsman-like. Regards, D.C. Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Yeah, I think the issue is two fold First, the trigger guard was manipulated in some way. Maybe it was just polished, but looking at the photos I don't believe that is blueing coming off from simply handling the gun. The second issue is that stories aren't marrying up like they probably should. I see your point D.C. and I don't know that I disagree. THe most professional person in all of this has been Julie. My issue isn't about who did or didn't win - or why for that matter. It would be very comforting if all the stories married up though. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Carlos, Sometimes the "Finders of Fact" get it wrong. I don't know if that is what happened. However, from what I have to go on, it certainly seems likley. I want to see some follow through on this issue. Later, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Also, if anyone who saw the gun in real life could help, are the grips sunk under the level the of the frame. Cause I want those grips if the do. In fact I really want grips with that profile. I own every set that CZ sells in the US, and non look like that. Let me put it this way, I couldnt care less that the arbitration decide something. Even if that makes is IPSC "law", I disagree with pleanty of laws and lobby against them. People are allowed to disagree with think for themselves and request changes. Otherwise we dont get progress. I'm sure Adam Tyc is a great shooter, but I am really concerned that Mr Pinto lists his gun as a CZ85 (or at least the model he has inspected) when the pictures clearly show a CZ-SP01. And do those who think these are sour grapes about Glocks and Sevigny, at least from my position, I shoot CZ's, dont like Glocks, never met Dave S and last I know Angus was coming in second place. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 No argument from me that they sometimes get it wrong; just look at the recent Supreme Court decision on eminent domain. However, just like the decisions of the Supreme Court, there is no appeal under Rule 11.6.3: Decision is Final. There can not be (nor should there be) any further examination of the issue; it is resolved. Moreover, lets ask the aggrieved party here: Julie (actually, I believe she filed under 11.7: Third Party Appeals). She has stated on the other thread, that she is dropping the issue & moving on. If not even the aggrieved party wants “follow through” here, why should we keep bringing it up? I agree w/ Julie & others; it is time to move on. Regards, D.C. Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I don't see any reason to drop it until: 1.We know for sure what happened 2.If rules were broken, we need to out the rulebreaker, and humiliate them a little bit. If someone cheated, every single IPSC member should be aggrieved. I don't think it matters who filed the official complaint. Fair enough? Later, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Chill you guys , wear sandpaper on your finger and you will get the desired effect after only 2000 rounds and you can claim that it is from 200,000 dry fires from your tough @ss calouses I guess the judges didn't know what to do if the champion did something so silly. Dang, too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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