How slow is slow enough?

[dainsleif]

For what it's worth as an update to my OP, next match for me is Sunday. Might be the last of season, but I think a few places here have a November match.

 

It'll be my first with "legit" stuff - running a CZ Shadow 2 with CR Speed belt & pouches plus a Bladetech holster. I know gear won't mean anything if I don't do my part but it feels better and is giving me some confidence. I've been running through dryfire drills and doing live fire 1-2 times a week and I feel like I am getting better.

 

I think I have diagnosed part of my Mike/No-shoot problems, and it was related to grip/sight alignment. I was actively holding off target to try to correct my perceived problem since POI was not equaling POA, , but I think now I've actually figured out the cause of the problem (which has been plaguing me for a while). I've since made a couple tweaks and my last live fire session was very positive. While I'm going to try to shoot as clean a match as I can on Sunday, I feel like the changes to gear/technique and philosophy based on suggestions here and elsewhere have already led to some improvement/maturation since I started in April.

 

I'm not intending to "slow down and get my hits," but instead to try to call my shots as best I can and shoot at the speed of acceptable sight pictures. I think the above mentioned tweaks will already make a positive impact. I'm really digging the Shadow 2 as well...a different animal to the G19 I ran last match!

[AndyG]

20 minutes ago, wtturn said:

 

Guess why you're B class and not M/GM?

 

Because you're slow.

 

Speed doesn't come without a conscious effort to improve speed.  You can go out and drill alphas all day but if you don't test the boundaries and push yourself and make mistakes, you can't grow.  YOU HAVE TO GO FAST ON PURPOSE TO BE FAST.

 

Maybe you shouldn't dispense advice until you have the depth of experience that lends it credibility.  

Do you think anyone can actually hit GM in 6 months? I've only been shooting for a short while, and I do push myself until i see my shots starting to spread apart and a pull back just a little to make it consistent. I thought this was the Beginners section,I have a right to my opinion in as do you. If that offends you get over yourself and move on. If you're throwing Mike's and hitting no shoots you think he should speed up? 

[wtturn]

2 minutes ago, AndyG said:

I have a right to my opinion in as do you. 

 

You have a right to your own opinion.  You don't have the right to regurgitate bad advice which has the potential to damage other people.

 

 

[AndyG]

Just now, wtturn said:

 

You have a right to your own opinion.  You don't have the right to regurgitate bad advice which has the potential to damage other people.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, wtturn said:

 

You have a right to your own opinion.  You don't have the right to regurgitate bad advice which has the potential to damage other people.

How do you figure that's bad advice if op is hitting mikes and no shoots i would think he needs to work on accuracy and shoot to his abilities.  Speed DOES come with time. No one goes out in the beginning and burns stages down and if they do they throw a lot of Mike's. If youre not hitting the target you're not getting any points. When I first started off I asked a GM for advice and he told me to be safe have fun and shoot alphas. 

[wtturn]

5 minutes ago, AndyG said:

 

How do you figure that's bad advice if op is hitting mikes and no shoots i would think he needs to work on accuracy and shoot to his abilities.  Speed DOES come with time. No one goes out in the beginning and burns stages down and if they do they throw a lot of Mike's. If youre not hitting the target you're not getting any points. When I first started off I asked a GM for advice and he told me to be safe have fun and shoot alphas. 

 

You've got it all figured out.  Good luck.

[dainsleif]

It's points divided by speed, so both are important. I don't think you can improve speed and accuracy simultaneously, so I am going to start with accuracy especially since the next match will be the first with this pistol and gear. I think I can then do a lot of speed more practice/drills/training in the "off season" to try to improve that aspect. I've already been working to improve my draw times and I am seeing the timer creeping down.

 

I think with the changes I've made I can drastically reduce/negate mikes and no-shoots. Each match I've gotten better, and I think I am going to see some good gains now that I've gotten into a regular practice routine with proper equipment.

[HoMiE]

4 minutes ago, dainsleif said:

 I don't think you can improve speed and accuracy simultaneously

You certainly can. This whole game is based on how fast can I shoot an A zone. Anyone can hit the target if given enough time. The goal is how fast can I shoot and know I hit target. You need to work on both, not one and then the other. 

[wdfwguy]

I shot my first USPSA match this year, so take this with a grain of salt.  But after my first match, I had similar questions.  My times were very slow, but I was very accurate.  I wondered if I needed to make an effort to speed up or go faster.  I'm still trying to get my head around some things, but I conceptualize it in this way;

 

During a match, I don't think about speed (slowing down, speeding up, go fast on one stage, slow down and get my hits on another)  My only thought is to shoot to an acceptable sight picture.  That is, when the dot rises, I feel like I had an A or a close C.  The movement, I leave to my subconscious.

 

In practice, though...I'm always trying to find a way to get faster.  Draw faster, get in and out of positions faster, transition faster, faster, sooner, quicker everything.

 

Ultimately, I'd like to have two modes (I don't want to use the word speed) of running a stage.  When I'm LITERALLY shooting, pulling the trigger, I want to shoot to an acceptable sight picture.  Everything else, I want to do as quickly as I possibly can.  When my dot lifts after the last shot on an array, I want to IMMEDIATELY hit the nitrous button.  Not consciously/trying, but subconsciously because that's how I've been practicing. 

 

Hopefully that makes some sense and isn't bad advice. 

 

 

 

[mwc]

On 10/18/2018 at 10:17 AM, AndyG said:

Speed DOES come with time.

This is a myth.  I know shooters that can shoot very accurately and have been shooting USPSA for 5-6 years and they are no faster now than they were when they started, because they practice being slow.

I totally agree that practicing fundamentals and being able to hit what your aiming at while standing still and upright is important, but once you have reasonably mastered that, you have to practice shooting fast in order to learn how to shoot fast.

Edited October 23, 2018 by mwc

[dainsleif]

8 minutes ago, wdfwguy said:

I shot my first USPSA match this year, so take this with a grain of salt.  But after my first match, I had similar questions.  My times were very slow, but I was very accurate.  I wondered if I needed to make an effort to speed up or go faster.  I'm still trying to get my head around some things, but I conceptualize it in this way;

 

During a match, I don't think about speed (slowing down, speeding up, go fast on one stage, slow down and get my hits on another)  My only thought is to shoot to an acceptable sight picture.  That is, when the dot rises, I feel like I had an A or a close C.  The movement, I leave to my subconscious.

 

In practice, though...I'm always trying to find a way to get faster.  Draw faster, get in and out of positions faster, transition faster, faster, sooner, quicker everything.

 

Ultimately, I'd like to have two modes (I don't want to use the word speed) of running a stage.  When I'm LITERALLY shooting, pulling the trigger, I want to shoot to an acceptable sight picture.  Everything else, I want to do as quickly as I possibly can.  When my dot lifts after the last shot on an array, I want to IMMEDIATELY hit the nitrous button.  Not consciously/trying, but subconsciously because that's how I've been practicing. 

 

Hopefully that makes some sense and isn't bad advice. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the post. I'm trying to do the same thing, but I would not say I'm particularly accurate.

 

I'm trying to focus on positives from Sunday's match but to be honest I'm feeling pretty badly about myself.

 

On the plus side:

 - For the first time out of my first five matches, I didn't zero any stages.

 - I didn't finish last in Production, or overall

 - It was my first match with a gun I've only owned two weeks, using a belt, holster and pouches that were brand new

 - On a 127 round count match, I had 7 mikes and 3 no-shoots which for me I think was pretty good.

 - I completed a Texas Star for the first time

 

On the negative side:

 - I only finished ahead of a couple shooters

 - My time was bad overall--granted a.) I had a malfunction [double feed] on one stage that killed my time on a stage I was otherwise doing well on, b.) the Texas Star really got spinning and took me a while to finish

 

I guess it just sucks seeing your name near the bottom and how far behind you are.

I know I can and do need to practice more but I guess I feel like I need more direction. I can't find anyone around here that offers any courses/training/coaching and it isn't really feasible for me to travel much due to my family situation.

 

I guess I'm just kind of disappointed in myself and discouraged. On the other hand if I were an established shooter I'd probably be kind of pissed if  a (relatively) new person out shot me. I just know one of my shooting acquaintances who finished near the top of a recent match openly admitted he doesn't really practice other than the occasional live fire trip.

 

However, to sort of tie this back to my original post, my Mike/No-Shoot numbers are definitely trending in the correct direction over the 5 matches:

 

M / NS

26 / 10
34 / 1
21 / 7
14 / 5
7 / 3

 

I think I need to increase my dryfiring routine. I am hoping to get in one more match before winter. It was 40°F at the past match, and between wind and stage malfunctions we had 7 or 8 reshoots.

[SilverBolt]

Looking at your 5 results your accuracy is improving.  Dry fire will get you comfortable with your new gear.  Changing guns is a big deal.  I shot a Glock in Limited when I started.  Shot that for almost two years.  Became very comfortable with it.  I made the decision to switch to a 2011.  It took me about 3-4 months of dry fire, live fire, and 4-5 matches a month before I started to bond with the new gun.  If you put in the work the results will come.  Read the books, watch the videos and practice.  

[wdfwguy]

If you're still having an issue with POI and POA being off, you have to fix that.  You can't shoot a match like that.  And if you're having malfunctions, take care of that as well. 

 

You need to have confidence in your gear.

 

And I don't mean for this to sound like a dumb question, but do you know how to shoot a Texas star?  That is, in what order to shoot the plates?

[Eureka1911]

I can't really add anything regarding technique to what's already been posted. One thing I try to keep in mind is that this is a journey and not a destination.  Don't try to rush your improvement or beat yourself up over your performance. Each match is a learning opportunity. Focus on doing better than you did last time. Keep working on basics rather than focusing on the results.  

[dainsleif]

14 hours ago, wdfwguy said:

If you're still having an issue with POI and POA being off, you have to fix that.  You can't shoot a match like that.  And if you're having malfunctions, take care of that as well. 

 

You need to have confidence in your gear.

 

And I don't mean for this to sound like a dumb question, but do you know how to shoot a Texas star?  That is, in what order to shoot the plates?

POI/POA difficulties appear to be past me, I think I figured out my problem the the 50% or so reduction in M/NS from last match I think bears this out. Not sure about the malfunction, first I had during a match, although this was a new gun.

 

As for the star, to be honest, one guy once mentioned "shooting plates on opposite sides" to try to keep it balanced, but that's it. If there is a better or more precise method, I'd be eager to learn it.

[Rnlinebacker]

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed; I am (unsurprisingly) new and as such I am not sure the best way to phrase/ask these questions.
 
So, I just finished my third match yesterday....and I'm bad...like, really bad. I finished 46th out of 46 (across all classes). I am shooting production. My first match I finished 13th out of 14 and in my second match I also finished last. This was somewhat expected since I recently moved and was unable to shoot at all for seven months (not that I was particularly adept beforehand). I have very slightly improved between the three matches, which I am assuming is due to light amounts of practice plus perhaps more attention to planning courses.
 
Looking at my scores from yesterday I see:
Points 105.1423 for a Match % of 15.5527
116 A + C + D vs. 21 M and 7 NS.
 
Am I correct in thinking that Mikes and No-shoots are absolutely killing me?
The more I think about it, my guess is that I must be going too quickly trying to emulate other seasoned shooters and as a result I'm piling up the mikes and no-shoots.
 
This is undoubtedly subjective, but how slow should I go? The more I think about it, a slow hit is better than a fast miss...
When you all were first starting out, did you find you had to go very slowly at the start? Should I start slow but (hopefully) get a good amount of hits and then work to gradually speed things up?
 
If you had to distill any advice down to a couple of nuggets that I could try to incorporate for the next match, what would they be? How long is reasonable to expect last place finishes? I don''t have any delusions of grandeur, but I don't want to be last place forever, and I do want to improve.... thank you.

Don't be disheartened we all start somewhere.

There are two extremes on the shooting spectrum:

Shooting as fast as you can vs Shooting as fast as humanly possible. The latter of the two sounds and looks really cool on Instagram but it's stupid because we're playing a GAME that requires POINTS.

Now, shooting as fast as you can is reliant on your skill and ability which will ALWAYS continue to evolve. So for right now don't focus on shooting slow OR fast!

Instead, focus on SHOOTING AS FAST AS YOU CAN SEE YOUR SIGHTS! Time is irrelevant BUT will be good IF you don't waste extra shots and really focus on your trigger prep and pull on hard cover/NS targets. Take more time on the best shot placement for targets with NS if you need to because they hurt more than any other target.

Will there be stages where you "outrun" the points? Yes, but shooting minor is not gonna favor you in being excessive with Charlie's and Delta's. Furthermore, these stages only come around every once in a while. Be conservative and play the points!

Respect to you for wanting more and desiring to be better. That attitude added to some sweat equity will lead to great results sooner than you think but probably not as quickly as you want. Good luck!!

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[dainsleif]

I think the tweaks that have given me some better accuracy will help with the speed in certain ways as well. Thus far, I haven't been too confident in my abilities to hit longer shots so I always get as close as I can and go out of my way to take easier shots even at the expense of time. On certain stages I watched GMs nail long shots from positions I wouldn't try which allowed them to save the time moving to an easier position. Now that I am improving in my accuracy confidence, I hope this will give me more stage planning options. This past match, I know I would have done a lot better if I didn't waste time with the malfunction and needing a good amount of shots to finish the Texas Star. Also, on the classifier, it was Comstock scording so I took 2-3 extra shots just to try to make sure I got some points, although it did hurt a bit time-wise. Still, a focus on eliminating mikes and no shoots definitely caused me to be conservative in my positioning and planning. For now, though, I am satisfied with that. Four matches ago I had 34 mikes! To have it down to 7, while not ideal, does give me some measure of satisfaction.

 

There was someone who "missed fast enough" to beat me, looking at the scores. He had 20-30% lower points but was about half my overall time for the match. I don't want to go down that road, but I do think I need to work on that speed. For now though, I'll stick to trying to improve speed in practice while trying to go for accuracy in matches until I am confident I have quashed the no-shoots and mikes, or at least reduced them to an acceptable level. At the current trend, I'll have 0 mikes and 1.5 ns next match, ha.

 

I'm also trying to learn shot calling. One rather distant target was the source of 2 of the 7 mikes. It was a partial and I thought I got headshots, but apparently I didn't. It stung, but I don't want to let it bother me too much. It kind of stinks I know people are shooting 3-4 matches a month and improving; with my current budget and family situation I'm relegated to one every 4-6 weeks, but I am hoping with live fire practice and dryfire practice I can really make those matches count.

[Rnlinebacker]

I think the tweaks that have given me some better accuracy will help with the speed in certain ways as well. Thus far, I haven't been too confident in my abilities to hit longer shots so I always get as close as I can and go out of my way to take easier shots even at the expense of time. On certain stages I watched GMs nail long shots from positions I wouldn't try which allowed them to save the time moving to an easier position. Now that I am improving in my accuracy confidence, I hope this will give me more stage planning options. This past match, I know I would have done a lot better if I didn't waste time with the malfunction and needing a good amount of shots to finish the Texas Star. Also, on the classifier, it was Comstock scording so I took 2-3 extra shots just to try to make sure I got some points, although it did hurt a bit time-wise. Still, a focus on eliminating mikes and no shoots definitely caused me to be conservative in my positioning and planning. For now, though, I am satisfied with that. Four matches ago I had 34 mikes! To have it down to 7, while not ideal, does give me some measure of satisfaction.
 
There was someone who "missed fast enough" to beat me, looking at the scores. He had 20-30% lower points but was about half my overall time for the match. I don't want to go down that road, but I do think I need to work on that speed. For now though, I'll stick to trying to improve speed in practice while trying to go for accuracy in matches until I am confident I have quashed the no-shoots and mikes, or at least reduced them to an acceptable level. At the current trend, I'll have 0 mikes and 1.5 ns next match, ha.
 
I'm also trying to learn shot calling. One rather distant target was the source of 2 of the 7 mikes. It was a partial and I thought I got headshots, but apparently I didn't. It stung, but I don't want to let it bother me too much. It kind of stinks I know people are shooting 3-4 matches a month and improving; with my current budget and family situation I'm relegated to one every 4-6 weeks, but I am hoping with live fire practice and dryfire practice I can really make those matches count.

Easy way to get back the time you're wasting on far shots:

PRACTICE live fire on paper targets at a MINIMUM of 15 yards. Run as many strings as you need to get the hits you need. Level the sights, grip hard, trigger prep and then pull proper on EACH shot. It should not take you more than 4-5 practice sessions to develop the confidence to take the farther shots which leads to tremendous time savings. Then, when you see paper targets at 3 yards or less you'll be more confident in hosing at them

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[dainsleif]

7 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Easy way to get back the time you're wasting on far shots:

PRACTICE live fire on paper targets at a MINIMUM of 15 yards. Run as many strings as you need to get the hits you need. Level the sights, grip hard, trigger prep and then pull proper on EACH shot. It should not take you more than 4-5 practice sessions to develop the confidence to take the farther shots which leads to tremendous time savings. Then, when you see paper targets at 3 yards or less you'll be more confident in hosing at them

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Yeah, I've been practicing lately on plate rack at 25 yards. I think that's been part of the reason I am seeing better accuracy since it's making the targets seem closer by comparison. There was a plate rack at about 10 yards at the match and I breezed through it. In general I try to train/do things harder than they will be when the time comes to execute them, so it'll seem easier by comparison. I think the more I get accustomed to the new pistol and gear, the better I'll do; plus I'll just be accruing some match experience. If only I were in a warmer place, I'm a bit bummed that It'll be 4 months or so after the next match. I guess I'll just need to keep practicing so I can hit next season running and maybe surprise a few people before they knock their own rust off next spring.

[HoMiE]

You should go take a class in a warmer climate over the winter. 

[Rnlinebacker]

Yeah, I've been practicing lately on plate rack at 25 yards. I think that's been part of the reason I am seeing better accuracy since it's making the targets seem closer by comparison. There was a plate rack at about 10 yards at the match and I breezed through it. In general I try to train/do things harder than they will be when the time comes to execute them, so it'll seem easier by comparison. I think the more I get accustomed to the new pistol and gear, the better I'll do; plus I'll just be accruing some match experience. If only I were in a warmer place, I'm a bit bummed that It'll be 4 months or so after the next match. I guess I'll just need to keep practicing so I can hit next season running and maybe surprise a few people before they knock their own rust off next spring.

plate rack is decent to practice on if available but the paper is more honest.

You need the scoring zones on the paper to tell you if you're calling too many Charlie's and Delta. the steel simply is a miss or a hit. We need more feedback than that in our game

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[dainsleif]

2 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

plate rack is decent to practice on if available but the paper is more honest.

You need the scoring zones on the paper to tell you if you're calling too many Charlie's and Delta. the steel simply is a miss or a hit. We need more feedback than that in our game

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That's a good point. I have 25 USPSA targets, but I can only use them at one of my clubs as silhouettes are banned at the other club (where I get to practice more often). I use some for dryfire, and I am going to try to bring some to the second club for better practice, where there are action pits and I can draw/move/shoot more freely.

[Racinready300ex]

23 minutes ago, dainsleif said:

That's a good point. I have 25 USPSA targets, but I can only use them at one of my clubs as silhouettes are banned at the other club (where I get to practice more often). I use some for dryfire, and I am going to try to bring some to the second club for better practice, where there are action pits and I can draw/move/shoot more freely.

 

Cut the heads off? Buy some turtle targets?

[HoMiE]

23 minutes ago, dainsleif said:

That's a good point. I have 25 USPSA targets, but I can only use them at one of my clubs as silhouettes are banned at the other club (where I get to practice more often). I use some for dryfire, and I am going to try to bring some to the second club for better practice, where there are action pits and I can draw/move/shoot more freely.

Why not just remove the upper A zone ?

[dainsleif]

37 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Cut the heads off? Buy some turtle targets?

 

36 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Why not just remove the upper A zone ?

I can't believe I didn't think of that, lol.

[tdp88]

Most here will probably tell you differently, but I think it’s harder to learn speed when you start slow than accuracy when you start out with bad points. With lots of practice, you will intuitively learn to track your sights and transition without muscling the gun too much. If you start out really slow, like I did, it is not intuitive to shoot faster. The whole slow is smooth and smooth is fast isn’t really true in USPSA. Slow is slow, but if your sights are all over the place and you’re not even hitting the targets just ease up a little and find your sights. A lot can be done on index and transitions in dry fire. Drills like doubles go a long ways to shooting accurately at speed.


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