How slow is slow enough?

[GunBugBit]

It doesn't take many Mikes and/or No-Shoots to zero out the Hit Factor, even though you might have had some other good shooting within the stage.  The technique foundation advice is good and to be taken seriously.  The goal as you apply all of that is to get to a place where you can, at will, get just about every point available in a match, without a lot of strain.  Once there, your accuracy foundation is in place. Not that you can't start working on efficiency, it's just that it won't do you that much good until you have the accuracy foundation.

 

Notice I did not suggest slowing down.  Shooting better does not necessarily mean going slower, but it does most likely involve a change in approach and technique.

[perttime]

Somebody mentioned books. I'd consider Brian's Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals.

https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506

 

The equipment in the book is from a couple of decades back - but the ideas still work. And it is a good read too.

[HesedTech]

Welcome!

 

It’s a great game and really a lot of work to get “good” at.

 

Here’s my suggestion, get Steve Anderson’s books, listen to his podcast, and find a place where you can live fire practice while moving and at speed. 

 

Basically you have to practice, both dry and live fire, at least three times a week (more if you want to shoot like the local hot shoes) in addition to your monthly matches.

 

I also recommend taking some instruction from a seasoned shooter and if in Colorado look up Charlie Perez, aka “Big Panda,” and take his class. Without a doubt I believe it is the best introduction to the USPSA game and techniques needed to play it. No I do not get any commissions from him.

 

BTW, if you make a commitment to the game get the correct gear/rig for your division. However, without practice the gear will not  make you any better.

 

As Steve Anderson says, “Get to work!”

[blacklab]

I didn't read all the response's to the OP but I can tell you from personal experience that when I'm on a squad will extremely good shooters I'm at my worst. I try to push myself to go the same pace as they go and that's when things go bad, mikes and no shoots start to pile up. Like some other people said, practice, practice and more practice but also don't let other people get into your head. I try to teach myself to think I'm the only person there and that I'm not shooting against anyone. That way I can shoot at a pace that I'm good at. I don't worry about my score too much ether, if I come in first or last its all the same to me. To me its more about having a good time and hanging out with old friends and making new ones. With time and practice you'll get better and there will be plenty of people that will give you good pointers to help you along the way. Rome wasn't built in a day and mastering any art takes time so watch videos, read books and listen to the advice seasoned shooters give you. If you stick with it, someday you'll be the one giving advice to new shooters. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

4 hours ago, blacklab said:

 when I'm on a squad will extremely good shooters I'm at my worst. I try to push myself to go the same pace  

 

I've got the same problem.

 

If you're a 72, trying to be an 82 is a great idea during practice, but a BAD idea during a match.

 

Just shoot to YOUR capability, at the moment, and then go home and dry fire your way up to 82.     

[quiller]

I'm very new at this game and due to time and family commitments have yet to shoot a match. I do however make practice on Wednesday night most weeks.....if matches were Wednesdays I'd be all set. In any event I tell myself to slow down, get a solid grip, get the dot on target and then shoot. It's really hard not to go fast but I see a huge difference in my hits when I go slow. Several other shooters have worked with me and I have reached out and asked. Most people will be more than happy to help, just ask. Slow is good in my books until I get the basics down. Also, and this was mentioned a few times.....get Ben S' book and read it, follow it, dry fire by it. Happy and save shooting.

[dainsleif]

I've started to work on my dryfire most nights. I am planning on picking up a book or two, one with dryfire drills/focus, and one more generally on philosophy/information.

 

I'm leaning towards trying the G19 in the next match, just to see how it goes. I have this coming Friday off, so I was hoping to go to the range and do some live fire practice/drills as well.

 

Thanks for all the information so far, guys. It is appreciated.

[Kilrb]

I just started matches a couple of months ago. I try to go to the local indoor match every week and do Action Pistol each month. I bought twos of Bens books and took a class from a GM a couple of months ago. Will be taking another class next month. With the books classes and others at the matches I am starting to learn better on what to do to improve. Takes time and a lot of practice form me.

 

 

[broadside72]

I have been shooting USPSA matches for only 4 months and am middle of the pack (match overall) pretty consistently in the 7 level 1 matches I have participated in. Within my division I am top or near top in points (prior to penalties being applied, about 5% are M+NS combined unfortunately and shooting major helps).

 

My time is what is hurting my HF and ranking/placement. However, I am fine with this. I spend my time building the muscle memory and proper decision making skills during stages. I am not slow, there are plenty of folks that walk stages and just have fun shooting.  I have found that in my short time doing sanctioned matches these four things have made the most improvement over time:

1. Walk the stage several times and make a few plans. Step away and run the plans through your head several times and chose ONE. Walk the stage again according to your chosen plan. Then stick to that plan at the the start signal (as best as possible)
2. Move with purpose. Does not need to be fast, just with a conviction and according to your plan. Speed comes automatically
3. Assess but don't obsess over what went wrong
4. HAVE FUN

[Hi-Power Jack]

Damn, Broadside72, that kind of logic simply does NOT belong in a fully functioning

discussion group like this    

 

Where is your spirit, man ?

 

How about a little controversy ?

 

Have FUN ?   What, are you a far leftist or something ?

 

[broadside72]

My friends are always telling me I am overly logical and on point. 

 

I enjoy banter and teasing and controversy, but I hate to turn off new folks on any forum even if I am new also.  Besides I need the lower ranked shooters to stay in the game, keeps my higher in the pack!

 

back at ya 

[perttime]

How long do your matches give you for walking a stage? We often set a 2 minute limit after briefing on a short one, and maybe 3 or 4 minutes on a long one.

[dainsleif]

4 hours ago, perttime said:

How long do your matches give you for walking a stage? We often set a 2 minute limit after briefing on a short one, and maybe 3 or 4 minutes on a long one.

At the new club it's probably about 5 minutes for the squad as a whole, but we ended up being behind the other squads so maybe we weren't supposed to take that long. We had about 12 people on the squad so it did get a bit hectic with everyone doing mock runs/planning at the same time.

 

I've started listening to Steve Anderson's podcast, and although a chunk of it goes over my head, it seems like a way to keep the relevant topics in my mind.

[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, broadside72 said:

I need the lower ranked shooters to stay in the game, keeps me higher in the pack!

 

 

That's the spirit     

 

At least half the advice I give is designed to be incorrect, and keep

those lowly B's and C's in their place.     

[Mason]

There’s a reason the saying “slow is smooth, smooth is fast” is a thing. I starting going slower and making sure my shots count and while I wasn’t as fast it jumped me up in the scoring because it really helped to eliminate no shoots Mike’s and deltas. Also making sure I wasn’t still moving while trying to take a shot   

[paul788]

Slow is Slow.  Don't think speed, think "Shoot only when I have an adequate sight picture".  Practice everything: draw, acquiring a sight picture,  moving, and reloading.  At first concentrate on getting to the sight picture and then break one shot, re-acquire the sight picture and break shot #2.  Then work transitions and movement.  The movement skills are what separate the newbies from the old hands.

 

Never accept Slow. 

Paul Beck

[dainsleif]

3 minutes ago, paul788 said:

Slow is Slow.  Don't think speed, think "Shoot only when I have an adequate sight picture".  Practice everything: draw, acquiring a sight picture,  moving, and reloading.  At first concentrate on getting to the sight picture and then break one shot, re-acquire the sight picture and break shot #2.  Then work transitions and movement.  The movement skills are what separate the newbies from the old hands.

 

Never accept Slow. 

Paul Beck

That's one thing I've learned from Steve Anderson's podcast. Shoot at the speed of sight, when you have an adequate sight picture. Shoot at the level of accuracy the sport requires, which is different from shooting with hyper accuracy. But don't "slow down so I can get my hits."

 

As a bit of an update from when I started the thread, at my last match I did go "slower" but tried to only do it to the level required for me to take better shots and reduce mikes and no-shoots, rather than going slow for slowness's sake. On the last stage of the match, which was basically a field course, I had no no-shoots and only one mike, while finishing eighth from the bottom in c. 50 shooters. While for most people that would be a poor showing, I presume, it was the highest I finished overall in a stage so far, and it left me with some confidence as everything felt like it was clicking and I got into a bit of a groove. It was nice that it was the last stage so that I can hopefully carry that momentum.

I also invested in some bona fide gear, with a CR Speed Belt and pouches arriving on Friday. I just purchased a CZ Shadow 2 that I should be picking up tomorrow from the FFL. I've been working with Steve Anderson's dryfire book and recording my par times and doing live fire once per week. Hoping to hit one or two more local matches before winter sets in.

[csailer]

I'd first go as slow as safe for you.

 

Shoot safe, that #1.  Do your research, start to practice, find some shooting buddies. 

 

Go from there and have fun!  Sounds like you should focus on fundamentals first, which is a good place to start.  From there, learn the game, movement etc

 

 

 

[jdk129]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:15 PM, dainsleif said:

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed; I am (unsurprisingly) new and as such I am not sure the best way to phrase/ask these questions.

 

So, I just finished my third match yesterday....and I'm bad...like, really bad. I finished 46th out of 46 (across all classes). I am shooting production. My first match I finished 13th out of 14 and in my second match I also finished last. This was somewhat expected since I recently moved and was unable to shoot at all for seven months (not that I was particularly adept beforehand). I have very slightly improved between the three matches, which I am assuming is due to light amounts of practice plus perhaps more attention to planning courses.

 

Looking at my scores from yesterday I see:

Points 105.1423 for a Match % of 15.5527

116 A + C + D vs. 21 M and 7 NS.

 

Am I correct in thinking that Mikes and No-shoots are absolutely killing me?

The more I think about it, my guess is that I must be going too quickly trying to emulate other seasoned shooters and as a result I'm piling up the mikes and no-shoots.

 

This is undoubtedly subjective, but how slow should I go? The more I think about it, a slow hit is better than a fast miss...

When you all were first starting out, did you find you had to go very slowly at the start? Should I start slow but (hopefully) get a good amount of hits and then work to gradually speed things up?

 

If you had to distill any advice down to a couple of nuggets that I could try to incorporate for the next match, what would they be? How long is reasonable to expect last place finishes? I don''t have any delusions of grandeur, but I don't want to be last place forever, and I do want to improve.... thank you.

Yes, getting rid of the mikes and NS are part of the solution. A phrase told to me early in my shooting efforts went like this, "You can never miss fast enough!"  Take what everyone else has suggested to heart and work your way up the ladder.

[tanks]

On 9/4/2018 at 11:57 PM, perttime said:

How long do your matches give you for walking a stage? We often set a 2 minute limit after briefing on a short one, and maybe 3 or 4 minutes on a long one.

 

Arrive at the match early enough so you can walk stages at your leisure and formulate a stage plans. Then, 2-5 minute pre-shooting walk through just becomes a refresher.

[AndyG]

Shoot accurately and speed will come with time. 

[wtturn]

40 minutes ago, AndyG said:

Shoot accurately and speed will come with time. 

 

Wrong.

 

 

[AndyG]

Nice constructive post there wtturn. I'm sorry but that's the advice I was given and I've made B class in 6 months. 

[wtturn]

11 minutes ago, AndyG said:

Nice constructive post there wtturn. I'm sorry but that's the advice I was given and I've made B class in 6 months. 

 

Guess why you're B class and not M/GM?

 

Because you're slow.

 

Speed doesn't come without a conscious effort to improve speed.  You can go out and drill alphas all day but if you don't test the boundaries and push yourself and make mistakes, you can't grow.  YOU HAVE TO GO FAST ON PURPOSE TO BE FAST.

 

Maybe you shouldn't dispense advice until you have the depth of experience that lends it credibility.  

[HoMiE]

18 minutes ago, AndyG said:

Nice constructive post there wtturn. I'm sorry but that's the advice I was given and I've made B class in 6 months. 

Shoot a clean match and you will make it to B class. You will also stay there if you don’t push it. But you cannot push it in a match if you have not trained and pushed through practice. There is nothing faster than knowing you shot an A and moving on to next shot.