Debating a new PCC

[mmlook]

46 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

I actually agree with you, especially now that the new short strokes are hitting the scene.   Guns are systems, and the systems have to synch.  However, I think there are a few triggers out there such as the hyper fire 24C that are pretty much reliable across the board, whereas some others are... not so much…

haha, I'll say two things about the hyper fire 24C

1. they are the most common trigger at the local matches I attend
 - at least 50% of the PCC guys use it
- Lots of A & B shooters with a couple Masters
2. I've personally seen the most failures with it
  - doubling
  - failure to reset
  - failure to fire(stuck on the sear)

 

nothing against it, nor do I have personal experience with it.
I currently run a JP roller, and a POF flat face drop in,

zero issues so far with a JP and Taccom bolt. 
have about 2000 rounds on each so far.

[jkrispies]

10 minutes ago, mmlook said:

haha, I'll say two things about the hyper fire 24C

1. they are the most common trigger at the local matches I attend
 - at least 50% of the PCC guys use it
- Lots of A & B shooters with a couple Masters
2. I've personally seen the most failures with it
  - doubling
  - failure to reset
  - failure to fire(stuck on the sear)

 

nothing against it, nor do I have personal experience with it.
I currently run a JP roller, and a POF flat face drop in,

zero issues so far with a JP and Taccom bolt. 
have about 2000 rounds on each so far.

Sounds like rhe POF is a rising star.  I’ve run a 24c (old style) for years.  Never had a problem, and virtually everybody I know (shooting team and otherwise) run the same trigger and have had the same experience. We run them in everything including.22lr on M&P15-22’s.  Interesting.  The only issue I’ve had is an occasional “double” on my PCC when my finger bounces on the trigger, but that’s my fault.  

[allamericanbp]

18 hours ago, gerritm said:

Texas is a really big state, where are you located? There are some super smart PCC guys here around Houston & College Station that would be more than happy to let you try their carbines and help out. I have 2 completely different builds that run 99.9% with Glock mags. Most of us have been shooting PCC's since before USPSA brought them in and can help with you not making all the same mistakes we did.

 

Here is my easy build list. Complete Taccom upper with BCG & 3-stage buffer. Any good lower, trigger of your choice. I run CMC's. Your choice of red dots, we run Vortex Venom & C-More. Can't go wrong.

 

gerritm

 

PM Sent.

[mike4045]

5 hours ago, jkrispies said:

Sounds like rhe POF is a rising star.  I’ve run a 24c (old style) for years.  Never had a problem, and virtually everybody I know (shooting team and otherwise) run the same trigger and have had the same experience. We run them in everything including.22lr on M&P15-22’s.  Interesting.  The only issue I’ve had is an occasional “double” on my PCC when my finger bounces on the trigger, but that’s my fault.  

Been using POF since 2012 in my 3 gun rifle and then my pcc. I did break a trigger spring, but they repaired for free and got it back in a week. I am in the minority as far as mag setup I still run uzi colt mags in my gun. Steel buffer and 308 buffer spring.

[BartCarter]

I have put the POF 4.5 lb trigger in 6 different PCCs without any problems.  Colt and Guard.

[Flatland Shooter]

12 hours ago, jkrispies said:

The only issue I’ve had is an occasional “double” on my PCC when my finger bounces on the trigger, but that’s my fault.  

 

I had the same problem with one of my Hiperfire triggers.  Turns out it didn't like the "too light" buffer/bolt combination I was playing with.  Brought the weight up to a reasonable level and the problems have not returned (that was about 11,000 rds ago).

 

 

[SJMPCC022]

21 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

Holosun 510C

How do you like it and how is it in the sunshine? I watched a few you tube vids and it seemed when the dude was using the circle with the dot in the bright sun it all kind of washed together into one huge circle. I realize that was a video of it so I am asking.

 

I was thinking about upgrading my dot when this season is over. I currently have a Bushnell AR Optic TR-25. I have zero complaints and it seems to work just fine, as long as the battery is good. With the red glasses I wear the dot is usable in the bright sun, but brighter would be sweet. I would imagine it would be tough to find anyone here who would say his ( or her) dot is way too bright in the sun and wishes it was dimmer.

 

I was going back and forth between the Holosun 510C and the C More railway.  The consensus opinion seems to be the reflex gives you better vision of the stage than a tube style dot ?

 

Feel free to chime in.

[3gunnuts]

I went with PSA upper and assembled a lower from KE Arms. JP trigger, Taccom 3 stage with short stroke upgrade. Ebay cheap comp and a Cmore. Runs exceptionally at this point.  I don't think going high end on a PCC is needed. This coming from a guy that shoots a JP, DVC 3GUN and a tuned VM CT for 3 gun and 2 2011's for Limited USPSA.

[3gunnuts]

17 hours ago, mmlook said:

haha, I'll say two things about the hyper fire 24C

1. they are the most common trigger at the local matches I attend
 - at least 50% of the PCC guys use it
- Lots of A & B shooters with a couple Masters
2. I've personally seen the most failures with it
  - doubling
  - failure to reset
  - failure to fire(stuck on the sear)

 

nothing against it, nor do I have personal experience with it.
I currently run a JP roller, and a POF flat face drop in,

zero issues so far with a JP and Taccom bolt. 
have about 2000 rounds on each so far.

I had doubling and hammer fall with the Hyperfire. Switched to JP and have not had an issue. Either has my teammate. I think they have the best trigger on the market and it has been proven for like 20 years.

[3gunnuts]

12 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

How do you like it and how is it in the sunshine? I watched a few you tube vids and it seemed when the dude was using the circle with the dot in the bright sun it all kind of washed together into one huge circle. I realize that was a video of it so I am asking.

 

I was thinking about upgrading my dot when this season is over. I currently have a Bushnell AR Optic TR-25. I have zero complaints and it seems to work just fine, as long as the battery is good. With the red glasses I wear the dot is usable in the bright sun, but brighter would be sweet. I would imagine it would be tough to find anyone here who would say his ( or her) dot is way too bright in the sun and wishes it was dimmer.

 

I was going back and forth between the Holosun 510C and the C More railway.  The consensus opinion seems to be the reflex gives you better vision of the stage than a tube style dot ?

 

Feel free to chime in.

My teammate just put a holosun on his Open pistol and likes it. Makes it easier to find the center dot. I tried an EOTECH for PCC after I blew the battery cover off my FF3 and found the circle really distracting. Switched to 8moa Cmore and I don't think it could be better.

[SJMPCC022]

5 minutes ago, 3gunnuts said:

My teammate just put a holosun on his Open pistol and likes it. Makes it easier to find the center dot. I tried an EOTECH for PCC after I blew the battery cover off my FF3 and found the circle really distracting. Switched to 8moa Cmore and I don't think it could be better.

I had an E O Tech on an AR a few years ago. It was heavy and overpriced, but you could also drive a semi over it and still use it. I don't plan on driving a semi over my PCC gun, so I am looking elsewhere.

 

Part of me says the dot in circle would be sweet to hit short distance targets faster and be able to dial in on farther targets with the dot.

 

The other part says there is a reason open guys have ben using that very C More for at least twenty years. Big dot, keep it simple. Two other questions on the C More..................

1- Is the Aluminum body worth the extra money? I don't shoot 3 gun with my PCC so it doesn't get dumped in a barrel or anywhere else, but I'm sure the AL is more durable.

2-  If you get the sight with the 8moa dot and buy the extra 2moa diode, can you swap out between stages without losing your zero ?

[Flatland Shooter]

I run both polymer and aluminum frame C-mores.  Initially some of the aluminum ones were bought for 3 gun.  Like you say, in USPSA we are not dumping our PCC's in barrel so go with what you have or want to buy.

 

The main benefit I see with the aluminum C-more is the battery cover is held in place with thumb screws.  No fumbling around for an allen wrench when a battery dies. The weight difference between the two is not that much (pretty much unnoticeable).   I did try to find some thumb screws that will work with the plastic C-more but its calls for a special thread that make them hard to find.  I guess you could try to tap the plastic housing to use a standard thread but that project has not been a high priority.

 

It is rare for me to switch out modules in my C-mores but when I do it requires a re-zero of the gun.

[CalTeacher]

46 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

How do you like it and how is it in the sunshine? I watched a few you tube vids and it seemed when the dude was using the circle with the dot in the bright sun it all kind of washed together into one huge circle. I realize that was a video of it so I am asking.

 

I was thinking about upgrading my dot when this season is over. I currently have a Bushnell AR Optic TR-25. I have zero complaints and it seems to work just fine, as long as the battery is good. With the red glasses I wear the dot is usable in the bright sun, but brighter would be sweet. I would imagine it would be tough to find anyone here who would say his ( or her) dot is way too bright in the sun and wishes it was dimmer.

 

I was going back and forth between the Holosun 510C and the C More railway.  The consensus opinion seems to be the reflex gives you better vision of the stage than a tube style dot ?

 

Feel free to chime in.

The dot is bright in the brightest of light.  I love that optic.  I don’t use the circle dot, just the circle.

 

I’ve used a Cmore as well and prefer the 510C all day.  I have a tube style dot on another rifle and it works fine, but in my experience the open style red dots are much faster with a better field of view.

 

 

[SJMPCC022]

15 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

The dot is bright in the brightest of light.  I love that optic.  I don’t use the circle dot, just the circle.

 

I’ve used a Cmore as well and prefer the 510C all day.  I have a tube style dot on another rifle and it works fine, but in my experience the open style red dots are much faster with a better field of view.

 

 

I appreciate the input, lots to think about.

[Whitefish]

49 minutes ago, SJMPCC022 said:

2-  If you get the sight with the 8moa dot and buy the extra 2moa diode, can you swap out between stages without losing your zero ?

 

You will need to re-zero the C-More when swapping diodes. Another shooter once told me you did not have to re-zero when swapping diodes, so I tried it with my USPSA open gun. Care to guess how that disaster turned out - a zero'ed stage by the time we got done counting the penalties ! You might get lucky, but the odds are against you. Always re-zero when swapping the diode.

[Cavy]

On 8/20/2018 at 7:00 AM, longbeard said:

It's like anything in shooting.  You think you want to dabble, and you buy in cheap, get hooked, and realize you wasted your first purchase.   Buying a pre-built brand usually ends up with what Sarge said.   Replacing almost everything.  Start with a good lower like the QC10 and build from there.

What he said. I have fallen into this trap also. Warning!  PCC is addictive. I haven"t shot my open gun since I got my PCC.

[1911luvr]

haha, I'll say two things about the hyper fire 24C

1. they are the most common trigger at the local matches I attend
 - at least 50% of the PCC guys use it
- Lots of A & B shooters with a couple Masters
2. I've personally seen the most failures with it
  - doubling
  - failure to reset
  - failure to fire(stuck on the sear)
 
nothing against it, nor do I have personal experience with it.
I currently run a JP roller, and a POF flat face drop in,
zero issues so far with a JP and Taccom bolt. 
have about 2000 rounds on each so far.

I’m not sure what the shooter’s classification has to do with how well the Hiperfire 24C trigger works, but I can tell you that jkrispies is a GM in both PCC Steel Challenge divisions, so he knows how to run a PCC extremely well. In fact, aside from him there are at least three more of us on the team that run the 24c, and all of us are GMs for what it’s worth.

I started PCC with the POF flat face, so I have much personal experience with it and while it works, I don’t like the longer take-up and reset compared to the 24c. That doesn’t make it a bad trigger, but it’s not want I’m looking for. The problems you mentioned above are not trigger problems, but symptoms of bolt/buffer/load combination issues that arise when people try to push the performance edge, and all are easily fixed without changing the trigger. There are a number of PCCs out there with various issues, but it has more to do with the lack of standardization of parts (no mil-spec for an AR-9), rapid evolution of the platform for gun racing, and the inexperience of the builders than it does any one singular component. As far as the Hiperfire 24c is concerned, there’s a reason it is the most used trigger in PCC: it works very well!


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[Cavy]

14 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

How do you like it and how is it in the sunshine? I watched a few you tube vids and it seemed when the dude was using the circle with the dot in the bright sun it all kind of washed together into one huge circle. I realize that was a video of it so I am asking.

 

I was thinking about upgrading my dot when this season is over. I currently have a Bushnell AR Optic TR-25. I have zero complaints and it seems to work just fine, as long as the battery is good. With the red glasses I wear the dot is usable in the bright sun, but brighter would be sweet. I would imagine it would be tough to find anyone here who would say his ( or her) dot is way too bright in the sun and wishes it was dimmer.

 

I was going back and forth between the Holosun 510C and the C More railway.  The consensus opinion seems to be the reflex gives you better vision of the stage than a tube style dot ?

 

Feel free to chime in.

I found the  circle/dot reticle to be too busy. Also in the bright sun it got too bright. You can fix this by fooling the scope by covering the solar panel with electrical tape until the dot turns down. I ended up putting the 510 on my shotgun and a C-More Railway 8min on my PCC.

[MemphisMechanic]

I love the circle-dot reticle. Max Leograndis runs the dot only, as do most others.

 

If you read the manual, you can take the Holosun out of auto mode and manually set your brightness. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never had the brightness issue - I run mine a few clicks short of full power in the brightest sun and don’t need any electrical tape. I never tried it in Auto at all.

 

The Holosun has the crispest reticle on anything I’ve ever tried in an optic like this - the EOTech was blurry and crap by comparison. If you saw dot and circle blurring, that was an exposure-compensation or focus issue with the video camera.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[mmlook]

1 hour ago, 1911luvr said:

 

I’m not sure what the shooter’s classification has to do with how well the Hiperfire 24C trigger works, but I can tell you that jkrispies is a GM in both PCC Steel Challenge divisions, so he knows how to run a PCC extremely well. In fact, aside from him there are at least three more of us on the team that run the 24c, and all of us are GMs for what it’s worth.

I started PCC with the POF flat face, so I have much personal experience with it and while it works, I don’t like the longer take-up and reset compared to the 24c. That doesn’t make it a bad trigger, but it’s not want I’m looking for. The problems you mentioned above are not trigger problems, but symptoms of bolt/buffer/load combination issues that arise when people try to push the performance edge, and all are easily fixed without changing the trigger. There are a number of PCCs out there with various issues, but it has more to do with the lack of standardization of parts (no mil-spec for an AR-9), rapid evolution of the platform for gun racing, and the inexperience of the builders than it does any one singular component. As far as the Hiperfire 24c is concerned, there’s a reason it is the most used trigger in PCC: it works very well!


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1. only mention shooting class, because in general, higher ranked shooters tend to have more mileage on their equipment.

and tend to keep them reliable l and running.  

i.e. you don’t make master with an unreliable trigger

 

2. if you read my previous post, that was exactly my point.  The combination of the bolt, buffer, load, and trigger all combine to the reliability on the fire control side.

 

not saying there’s anything wrong with the hyper fire 24c, but i’ve personally seen more failures with it than any other trigger. 

[jkrispies]

16 hours ago, SJMPCC022 said:

How do you like it and how is it in the sunshine? I watched a few you tube vids and it seemed when the dude was using the circle with the dot in the bright sun it all kind of washed together into one huge circle. I realize that was a video of it so I am asking.

 

I was thinking about upgrading my dot when this season is over. I currently have a Bushnell AR Optic TR-25. I have zero complaints and it seems to work just fine, as long as the battery is good. With the red glasses I wear the dot is usable in the bright sun, but brighter would be sweet. I would imagine it would be tough to find anyone here who would say his ( or her) dot is way too bright in the sun and wishes it was dimmer.

 

I was going back and forth between the Holosun 510C and the C More railway.  The consensus opinion seems to be the reflex gives you better vision of the stage than a tube style dot ?

 

Feel free to chime in.

I started my “dot journey” with several TR-25’s, and my experience with them is that their QC is all over the place.  If you win the lottery and get a good one, don’t let it go like I did with mine!!! Keep it for a back up optic or on a loaner gun if nothing else.  Of the 3 I’ve handled,, two were fine for plinking but not competition due to dim dots, and “the good one” was surpassed by other dots I eventually tried on for size.  Not a bad dot for $80ish , but highly recommended to upgrade in the long run.  Go to a reflex with a thin frame and it will be a whole new world for you.  

 

I’m a big fan of the Cmore RTS2 for competition.  Having said that, if I were starting fresh I think the Holosun 510 with its hood removed is well worth a look.  In terms of brightness, it’s a funny comment about complaints of being too bright because I use worn down batteries in my Cmore (8moa) when dry firing indoors because I can’t get the brightness down low enough. The only time I have to go to maximum brightness with the Cmore is when I’m outdoors and the batteries are on their last leg, and it’s very easy to change the battery in the RTS2.  The RTS2 tends to be a bit brighter than the Railway from what I’ve been told.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by jkrispies

[1911luvr]

 
1. only mention shooting class, because in general, higher ranked shooters tend to have more mileage on their equipment.
and tend to keep them reliable l and running.  
i.e. you don’t make master with an unreliable trigger
 
2. if you read my previous post, that was exactly my point.  The combination of the bolt, buffer, load, and trigger all combine to the reliability on the fire control side.
 
not saying there’s anything wrong with the hyper fire 24c, but i’ve personally seen more failures with it than any other trigger. 

OK, that’s fair, but remember that since there are likely more 24c in competition use than probably all other triggers combined (barring JP), you’re bound to see more issues with them, especially when you consider the bulk of the issues stem from the combination of the firing components as we agree.

The one issue I agree on was brought up by another poster who said they accumulate crud under the trigger. I would say that while it is true of any component style trigger, including JP, module style triggers aren’t subject to any less crud or stay any cleaner when shooting the same number of rounds. It‘s just easier to see since it is sitting on top, so it is likely cleaned out much more often than component style triggers. I actually had small brass pieces caught under mine from a OOBD, but they didn’t interfere with operation. By contrast, my POF trigger was cleaned often since the crud would be caked on top and hard not to notice when opening the upper.


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[SJMPCC022]

Great info from all and much appreciated. A friend of mine has the C More on his open gun, so I am going to commandeer it next week and play with it, how much depends on how much ammo he gives me !

 

I think I can also get a hold of a 510C to try on for size.

[allamericanbp]

Does anybody have any input or know of anyone with experience on this platform:

 

https://interordnance.com/product/m215-9mm-m-lok/

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

On 8/22/2018 at 4:26 PM, SJMPCC022 said:

Great info from all and much appreciated. A friend of mine has the C More on his open gun, so I am going to commandeer it next week and play with it, how much depends on how much ammo he gives me !

 

I think I can also get a hold of a 510C to try on for size.

 

Keep us posted. And let us know when you decide the 510C is superior.  

 

We have a few CMore railway PCCers locally. Playing with their guns makes me happy I chose not to buy one.

Edited November 21, 2018 by MemphisMechanic