HCH Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 This idea sounds great, so long as I only ever shoot one gun. What happens if if I want to shoot a SS Major gun one week, and a PCC the next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 What's the point of Classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, perttime said: What's the point of Classes? So people get their feel good trophy, same as divisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) In Divisions, there's at least big differences in equipment. Trophies in Classes would be just "I'm pretty hot among people who usually score about 40%". Edited August 17, 2018 by perttime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) In reality divisions were created cause someone couldn't win with the equipment they chose. When they were actually free to shoot anything they wanted, they chose inferior equipment and then complained that it couldn't compete, instead of getting equipment that could. So while it might take high end equipment to win HOA, the best equipment won't make mediocre shooters champs, it just makes them feel better, but they are still going to get beat. A straight class system would do what the combined class/division system does now, which is give mediocre shooters a chance to win their class, with out all the headaches of firearm division requirements. Think about how many threads here are about "can i do X to my pistol and it still be legal", a straight class system would eliminate all that. In the lower classes, where most USPSA shooters live any gun could win the class. A system like this is used in other sports and other shooting sports. So why have classes at all? Because just like now, even though people say classes are stupid etc., I have never seen anyone turn down their class trophy, except Stoger kinda, so it gives people something to shoot for and a measurable building block. Anyway, this was a fun discussion and i get that people don't like the idea. Have a good one Edited August 17, 2018 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 15 hours ago, RJH said: Not sure but $10,000 perrazis (sp) and $300 870s shoot together They don't allow Dots. Other than how the gun fits you there is no real equipment advantage. Some of the guns make shooting multiple gauges easy with tubes etc but that doesn't effect your shooting. Our sport with Major, Minor, 10 round mags up 50 round mags, there are huge swings in equipment advantages. Mixing it together would just discourage people and I think Drive them away. That's why people keep wanting new divisions. A few people wanted to shoot production guns with Dots. They already could in Open but they didn't want to. They wanted their own division and that's what they got. That's also why once a month there is a new thread about Limited Minor. Sure they can already shoot Minor in Limited, but that's not enough they don't want to be mixed together and they think the only reason Major shooters beat them is they don't have to aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: They don't allow Dots. Other than how the gun fits you there is no real equipment advantage. Some of the guns make shooting multiple gauges easy with tubes etc but that doesn't effect your shooting. Our sport with Major, Minor, 10 round mags up 50 round mags, there are huge swings in equipment advantages. Mixing it together would just discourage people and I think Drive them away. That's why people keep wanting new divisions. A few people wanted to shoot production guns with Dots. They already could in Open but they didn't want to. They wanted their own division and that's what they got. That's also why once a month there is a new thread about Limited Minor. Sure they can already shoot Minor in Limited, but that's not enough they don't want to be mixed together and they think the only reason Major shooters beat them is they don't have to aim. Wasn't aware that dots were not allowed - could you point me to a rule that outlaws them in Trap, Skeet, or Sporting Clays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 19 minutes ago, RJH said: . A system like this is used in other sports and other shooting sports. Which sports? You named shotgun sports earlier, that's a no go as there is no real equipment differences. High power has equipment based divisions. Benchrest has equipment based divisions. IDPA has equipment based divisions. Shot gun doesn't but has no need for it. I can't go shoot skeet with a red dot and a 30 round mag to hit one bird. If I could I bet they'd make me shooting in a different division. Those are the only shooting sports I've played, so fill me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, titandriver said: Wasn't aware that dots were not allowed - could you point me to a rule that outlaws them in Trap, Skeet, or Sporting Clays? No, I haven't shot that s#!t since I was a teenager and I'm not about to look up the rules. A buddy of mine recently told me he took his gun with a Dot to a shoot and was informed it wasn't legal. They let him shoot because they thought it was funny. I'm sure there is a reason you don't see any Dots in that competition, even though it's all old guys with bad eyes who would probably benefit from a dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I'm certain there are reasons you don't see them, not certain illegality is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: That's why people keep wanting new divisions. A few people wanted to shoot production guns with Dots. They already could in Open but they didn't want to. They wanted their own division and that's what they got. That's also why once a month there is a new thread about Limited Minor. Sure they can already shoot Minor in Limited, but that's not enough they don't want to be mixed together and they think the only reason Major shooters beat them is they don't have to aim. I agree with about 100% and the part i didn't quote about 99% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Which sports? You named shotgun sports earlier, that's a no go as there is no real equipment differences. High power has equipment based divisions. Benchrest has equipment based divisions. IDPA has equipment based divisions. Shot gun doesn't but has no need for it. I can't go shoot skeet with a red dot and a 30 round mag to hit one bird. If I could I bet they'd make me shooting in a different division. Those are the only shooting sports I've played, so fill me in. So the 10,000 dollar O/U has 0 advantage over the fixed choke pump? I am actually asking there, cause i figure it does Golf, tennis, other crap. High power only has 2 if i remember right, so that is a step in the right direction. Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win? If in reality you are shooting for 30th place, does it really matter what you or someone else is shooting? I guess to a lot of people it does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I still want to know what shooting sport mixes everyone together even with huge equipment differences. Sports I know don't USPSA/IPSC IDPA ICORE F-Class Hi-power Benchrest 3-gun Bianchi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 15 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said: That would be cool. As long as minor = 155 PF across the board I was thinking we should go with IDPA revolver PF of 105. I think everyone could shoot better like this. Maybe adopt the 2 anywhere on brown scoring system so we can all shoot faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, RJH said: So the 10,000 dollar O/U has 0 advantage over the fixed choke pump? I am actually asking there, cause i figure it does I guess it depends on the Choke. The fact that it's a pump will have zero impact on the score unless your shooting doubles. In the right hands it wont matter at all. The difference between those to shotguns and production vs open gun are vary different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I still want to know what shooting sport mixes everyone together even with huge equipment differences. Sports I know don't USPSA/IPSC IDPA ICORE F-Class Hi-power Benchrest 3-gun Bianchi Shotgunning was the only one i knew of, off the top of my head. USPSA used to be, but was altered for reasons discussed above. So i would really have to study it, but there could very well be no others, and i ain't going to look. I am pretty sure no one likes this idea, which was what i kinda figured would be the outcome when i started it, so research would be a waste of my time. Hell, you are one of few who have at least considered it, and put forth a reasonable argument. Haha. So in that vein i really am curious to hear your answer to these questions: Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win? If in reality you are shooting for 30th place, does it really matter what you or someone else is shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, RJH said: Shotgunning was the only one i knew of, off the top of my head. USPSA used to be, but was altered for reasons discussed above. So i would really have to study it, but there could very well be no others, and i ain't going to look. I am pretty sure no one likes this idea, which was what i kinda figured would be the outcome when i started it, so research would be a waste of my time. Hell, you are one of few who have at least considered it, and put forth a reasonable argument. Haha. So in that vein i really am curious to hear your answer to these questions: Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win? If in reality you are shooting for 30th place, does it really matter what you or someone else is shooting? So you imply lots of shooting sports do it this way when you only can think of one and it basically has zero equipment advantage between guns. Quick Google of shotgun rules. -Any gun, device, equipment, accessory or other item that may give an athlete an unfair advantage over others and that is specifically mentioned in these rules, or that is contrary to the spirit of these rules is prohibited.-So while maybe no division you can't just run what ever you want either.--- This basically makes it one limited division, not the same as your idea of a anything goes division. Also, most skeet matches I've shot had different matches for different gauges. Which is basically another form of a equipment based divisions. So you're not shooting a 410 against 12's unless you want to. 38 minutes ago, RJH said: Golf, tennis, other crap. Tennis, really? What are they going to do have divisions based on what brand shoes you wear? Golf, I don't anything about Golf but how would they do equipment based divisions? Again split up by the brand clubs you use? I don't think that would really work. All your motor sports have equipment based divisions. I can't really think of any sport that has large equipment differences and lumps everyone together. I'm sure there has to be at least one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 No. Bad idea. And the idea of classes as handicap does NOT solve/help the issue. There are no equipment divisions in golf... and everyone who is doing any kind of competitive golf plays the most advantageous gear they can get. There is nobody still playing persimmon-headed drivers in tournaments, and then counting on their handicap to make up the difference. The only time you see wooden-headed drivers are either the specialty tournaments that require such gear (the equivalent of a division) or from guys who are literally not trying to compete and are just playing "for fun." Similarly, if you did away with divisions in USPSA, everyone who was trying to win anything would shoot PCC or open; at this point, I think most people would find it easier to win with PCC, so that's what the game would become. Only the guys shooting "for fun" would shoot something else. You know how long guys who just shoot "for fun" tend to last in this game? Not very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I can't believe I read three pages of this crap. Some of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, RJH said: So the 10,000 dollar O/U has 0 advantage over the fixed choke pump? I am actually asking there, cause i figure it does Golf, tennis, other crap. You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that a lot of competitive players in those other games are using seriously sub-optimal equipment. They aren't. You are comparing USPSA shooters to the full array of people who show up at a skeet range or a golf course. That's dumb. USPSA is an official competition. You need to compare the USPSA population to the competitive skeet shooters and the competitive, tournament-playing golfers. And very, very, very few of those guys don't have gear that is pretty closed to maxed-out in terms of giving them as much legal advantage as possible... with cost being the main constraint. The idea is bad, and based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of how competition - as opposed to pure recreation - works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 18 hours ago, RJH said: Already addressed this, everyone not in open classification would drop, you are still thinking of the multiple classification curves we have now What if I'm a GM in Open but I am shooting Production at this match. What class do I declare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said: Why wont you answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, waktasz said: What if I'm a GM in Open but I am shooting Production at this match. What class do I declare? There are no divisions, run what you brung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, ATLDave said: You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that a lot of competitive players in those other games are using seriously sub-optimal equipment. They aren't. You are comparing USPSA shooters to the full array of people who show up at a skeet range or a golf course. That's dumb. USPSA is an official competition. You need to compare the USPSA population to the competitive skeet shooters and the competitive, tournament-playing golfers. And very, very, very few of those guys don't have gear that is pretty closed to maxed-out in terms of giving them as much legal advantage as possible... with cost being the main constraint. The idea is bad, and based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of how competition - as opposed to pure recreation - works. Till USPSA pays like competitive shotgun/golf/etc it really is recreation. I will pose the same question to you; Does most of this come up because people have the delusion that they are really going to win? If in reality you are shooting for 30th place, does it really matter what you or someone else is shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 But what class do I declare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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