Time For Teams ?

[BritinUSA]

Back in the heady days of Practical Shooting in the UK, we used to have teams of shooters. Some would be sponsored, some would just name themselves after their shooting club etc.. There were team shirts and trophies awarded for the top 3 teams at most matches.

Could we do the same thing here ?

Each team would consist of 4 people, just like national teams the top three scores would count. Highest score wins.

Each team could be one of the following:

Club Team

State Team

Area Team

Sponsored Team

If the idea were to catch on then perhaps some manufacturers/dealers etc. would sponsor teams. For example, Team Glock, Team Berretta, Team SVI etc. etc. If each team had their own uniform (ie. Polo Shirt) then a major match (like Nationals) would take on more of the appearance of a regular sporting event; I'm not sure if I worded that right but hopefully you get the idea.

Teams add another dimension to the scoring and match results, each member is not only shooting for themselves but for the team as well.

I remember it was great fun in UK and wondered if it could work here as well...The trophies/prizes don't have to cost too much, it's more a bragging rights kind of thing...

Thoughts ?

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the idea....

It seems that there would have to be some provisions also...

Would teams be able to shoot all in the same division or have 4 team members...one for each division (sorry Revo guys )?

[dirtypool40]

They do it down here and it's a lot of fun.

You could have mixed teams where you needed one each from junior, senior and LAdy. Or Mil / LEO.

Or Stand / LIM, Open, Prod and SS.

I hate to encourage sandbagging but you could have one from different classes.

With computer scoring there's no end to the ways you could cut it up.

Basically the sponsors has US locked up so they don't really need to sponsor teams.

[hopalong]

Jake,

You DON'T want me to break out the OPEN 40 round blaster and be on the OTHER team !!!!!!

Team Idea sounds good to me !!! who cares what division(s) are represented all should go by match points any way !!! (1 open, 1 prod, 1 L-10) if all 3 win thier respective divisions then they get 300 team match points.... pretty darn simple if you ask me !!!!

SmittyFl was toying with the idea.....do a search quite a long post !!!

Hopalong

[Jim Norman]

Teams, interesting idea. From an organizational P.O.V. it can work in many ways, but should be decided upon early on so that the teams would be stable across many different match venues. In other words, we either have an Divisional team, all in the same division, a cross divisinal team, one in each of 4, (again sorry to the rev dudes, but there just are not enough of you to go around) or a Senior, Junior Lady, Regular team, again divied as above, either one in each div or all from one. It is actually possible to have mixed teams, ie., you could have all three types of team, each only competeing for teram honors against the other similarly constituted teams. Only problem there is getting enough teams in each of the four possible catagories so that there was competition.

You could even sign up as a team at the match, sort of a pick-up team. Problems abound however with the fairness of it all, Suppose JJ, Dave S, Robbie and Todd all decided that they would be the cross discipline team, hard to picture a truly competitive team against them. Would you limit the teams to no more than one shooter in any one classification? ie., 1G, 1M, 1A, 1B, 1C, and/or 1D?

I would figure the scoring based upon finish position, that is, first place in Division is one point, second is 2 and so on, add up the place numbers and low score wins. You could have the #1 Open shooter, but have three or four lower places that allowed a team with no firsts, but all 3rds to win. Any team member tha gets a DQ wipes his team from team competition, individual results of course still stand.

Work out the details of the team make-up and I am all for it. Hey you could even have same division, all G or all M etc. teams. THere is no limit in theory, but there is in practicality.

Jim Norman

[XRe]

If you're going to do cross-divisional teams, why not say "any 3" or "any 4" divisions?? No reason to leave the Revo guys out - it would have a greater effect in Jim's method of adding up "places", but if you went by match points (or, if you prefer, match percentage), it would have much less of an effect (at least at any match that Jerry M. showed up to).

[iweiny]

I actually thought it would be a nice idea. I see it as yet another way for people to compete. It puts some pressure on people to do well for both the team and themselves. In addtion it allows people to really root for their "teammates". I think it could be fun. Of course as posted above the logistics would be something to be worked out.

Here is my idea to the pot. Couples teams. Like Shooter A and his or her spouse, SO, etc. Kind of like mixed doubles tennis. I know of a number of guys who after seeing my wife and I really enjoying the sport together would love to have their wifes come out. Perhaps this could be an additional incentive?

Anyway, there are a lot of ways to break it down. I know in my friends pool league they are "classified" and the way the team is made up they are forced to have less than a total skill level per match. Also when they play against each other they are handicaped based on their skill level. This is pretty complicated when I think of it in terms of shooting but it could be done, and once the algorithm is put in the computer it could be just another score printed out...

Ira

[Jim Norman]

At our 3-gun we use stage percentages as placement, add them up to get the winner. Essentially each stage is worth 100 points. So, the idea of using a match perccentage as points towards team placement is ok by me. Also, including the Revo guys in this manner is OK, it does not skew the reuslts like using place would, Using percentages allows a 10th place 50% finish in a field of 11 to count the same as a 50% finish in a field of 200.

All in favor, write your AD. In the interim, is there any reason that we can't do this??

Jim Norman

[JFD]

Couples teams is something that would actually bring new shooters to the sport, so I love it.

My team is ready!

[Jim Norman]

There are essentially two schools of thought that can be followed here.

First is a nationally recognized criteria for teams. THis allows my friends and I to buy shirts, or have our sponsers buy them and we travel and shoot as a known group.

Second is a match by match team criteria. As long as the team criterial are published with the match apps, there is no problem

BTW, these are not necesarily mutually exclussive. If there is a Natinal criteria, my team meets is and is recognized as a team at any match that recognizes teams, the walk-on special teams can co-exist in this. We do need to think about dilution of thepool however.

Do we add $5 to the match fee to be divided between the teams? (Ohter amounts depending upon match size and type) Do we have special trophies set aside? How do we pay for them?

I am infavor IF this is run properly and has some level of control so that it does not get out of hand.

Jim Norman

[Azone41]

The couples Idea sounds great. If my wife didn't want to start shooting then it would be her fault if I got a girlfriend

[XRe]

Won't work for me - been there, tried that. For multiple reasons, she picked up the nickname "Death Re".... :lol:

However, having couples teams would be cool

[Jim Norman]

OK< Did a little looking around on EzWin. THere is no provision currently for picking a team or a team winner. For ease of scoring, I suggest the percentage as points method. Each shooter has the oppurtunity to win 100 points for the match, that is 100%. If the shooter scores 78.975% in the match, regardless of his division, that is the points he brings to his team.

To keep tracking hte scores easy, I suggest using hte squad feature and assigning each team a squad number, print out the competitor list and just enter the match percentage as a whole number, ie., the aforementioned 78.975% becomes 78.975 points, total up the 4 tream members and Shazam, you got yerself a team score!

I would suggest that we think about the criteria for teams more. Keep in mind, the larger the match, the more team catagories you can have.

Anyone have a problem with one person being on more than one team, assumming that the teams are in different catagories.

To say that simpler, All Female team in L-10, one member could also be a member of a cross divisional team and also could be a member of say a Husband/Wife team.

I still have a problem with allowing an all G team competing in say Limited against other single class teams. I would say that within one team UNLESS there is a team catagory for a particluar class that there can be no more than one person of a particular class in a team.

Let me try to show this a bit clearer:

G-open

M-Limited

A-Production

B-L-10

This is an OK team

G-Open

G-Limited

A-Production

B-L10

Sorry, no good, unless you are shooting against the all G team catagory

Now if we look at the first team, Our M-limited shooter could have a G in Production, but since he is only an M in the division he is shooting in, he is OK as the designated M-Limited

I would probably try to figure a point system to apply to the team make-up that would allow for multiple team members to have the sam e classification.

Example

G=6 points

M=5 points

A=4 points

and so on

you are allowed 18 points which is equal to a G< M< A< B team.

2G =12 points, leaving you to fill your team with one A and a C, sonce you need 4 shooters for a team, you can't have 4 G since that is 6 points more htan you are allowed.

OK, there are a few ideas to toss around.

I'll check back later, just lets keep it simple to figure!

Jim

[Tom Balko]

I don't know if people will be happy with having the system dictate who can be team members.

What about using a concept similar to golf's handicap feature applied to the member’s actual current classifier percentage rather than their class letter. Determine the threshold at which point your team is shooting "scratch". It should probably be less than 100%, as some scratch players are more skilled than others. So maybe 85% (I don't know, I just picked this for sake of discussion) is scratch. Now, if your team's average current classifier percentage (ACCP ) is less than 85, simply apply the correct multiplier that makes them 85%, to their raw team points total, and there you go. If your ACCP is 85 or greater, you shoot scratch.

A similar concept could be applied to the divisions, and then it wouldn't matter what division you shot at the match. Assuming that generally, the order of performance would go: Open, Limited, Limited 10, Production, Revolver, you could mathematically adjust the other divisions up to normalize them with Open. This could work out a couple ways. You could adjust the individuals ACCP down some amount if they are not in Open Division, thereby helping to give the team a higher handicap, or adjust the shooter's raw score upward prior to applying the team's handicap.

Now it doesn’t matter if you’re an Open M, or a Production D, you can contribute to a team equally so long as you shoot to your ability. Now all teams compete head to head. This keeps the payback as large as possible, which helps make it attractive. I’m not sure our pool of participants is large enough to support cutting the teams up into various categories, at least at the start. Obviously some testing would need to be done to come up with the math factors.

Wow, does my head hurt! And now I have to go to work .

[wgnoyes]

OK< Did a little looking around on EzWin. THere is no provision currently for picking a team or a team winner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, yes there is, too. I used it at the Alabama 3-gun in 2003, assigned shooters to teams, named the teams, and printed out team results, only to find out the MD had already decided to to it another way. Anyway, here's an example:

If you're wondering, in this 3-team example, the bottom score in a team gets thrown out. That happens regardless of number of team members.

Hope this helps.

[Genghis]

If you're looking for a handicap like golf, you could use the midpoint of that shooter's division, or better yet, use the shooter's current percentage. Since I'm a lowly C shooter, recently dragged kicking and screaming from D class, my handicap would be 40.493%. Subtract that from my percentage score for the match and that's my points scored. Add the team members' points and you have the team score.

I assume higher class shooters are more consistent, so a lower class shooter who does unusually well would make more of a difference in the team outcome than a higher class shooter.

If the couples match idea becomes a reality, they'll have to start making earmuffs with three cups - the third one to cover the mouth. "What the h*ll were you thinking? You just lost this match for us!" I can only imagine the consequences. And remember, there are loaded guns present.

[BritinUSA]

My intention was to have teams in exactly the same way as National Teams at a world shoot. ie. Four members all in the same division. Class awards would not be applicable.

Only top 3 teams in each division would be awarded (just like a World Shoot).

That way the scoring software will not have to be rewritten and the established rules for teams (per IPSC rulebook) would remain unchanged. The only difference is that the Teams would not be National but could be Club-, Vendor-, Area-, State-based...

[Jim Norman]

Interesting comments.

I am not in favor of handicapping the teams. First, if I have a 63% in Production, but an 83% in Limited do I work off the production handicap? or the Limited handicap? Assume that I am shooting in Production on this team. Obviously I can navigate a COF and shoot or I would not have the 83%, It may only be that I have not shot production or a good classifier in a long time.

The heads-up method means you get what you shoot. Yes, it does mean we have to look at team compositions closer, but in the end it is the only fair way (my opinion)

I would start by limiting the catagories of teams to a few, get something going and work from there. Better we start with two or three team types and expand then to try 15 and fail miserably becasue we only have one team in each catagory at the match.

I looked last night and did not see teams in EzWion. Please te,, me what you did to assign teams? or are you using an older version and mine has maybe lost this capability?

Jim Norman

[wgnoyes]

...

I looked last night and did not see teams in EzWion. Please te,, me what you did to assign teams? or are you using an older version and mine has maybe lost this capability?

...

No, I'm running the latest 2.27. To enable a match to support teams, first you have to define the match as such here:

Set Teams to Yes as shown and put in the number of members on the team, including the alternate throwaway guy.

Then pulldown setup and select teams to set your team names:

Here in the resulting window is where you define teams. I've defined four in this example with very unimaginative names. You can put in what you want:

You'll want to screenprint or write this team name list down, because you assign members to teams by team number when you register them:

And once you do all that, just score your match normally. When you're done and you calculate match results, pulldown Reports and select Stage Winners and Finals by Class/Category to get your team results listing.

This works the same regardless of whether you run a match or (as illustrated here) a multigun tournament.

[Jim Norman]

DUH!

Next time I look twice! I had looked at a reacent match and since the match was already set-up, I by-passed the first screens. My error.

Thanks

I will play around with this on a recently completed match.

Jim

[BritinUSA]

I've sent my suggestion off the my Area Director (2). We'll see what - if anything - transpires.

[shred]

I thought we went over this recently.. anyway, multi-division teams are trouble because somebody will sandbag one of the under-subscribed divisions-- L10 or Revo are typical candidates unless it's a very big match with top shooters in all divisions. Teams are fun though.

[Jim Norman]

Interesting comment regarding sandbaggers. IF we allow cross divisional teams to exist they would have to consist of only one shooter per division. A team could be 1 Open, 1 Limited and 1 Revo vs a 1 L-10 1 Prod and 1 Open as a argument. Use the percentage of division winner as team member points, total them up and you have a winner. If you allow as indicated above only 1 shooter of each class on a team, asign a point value to each class and use the shooters highest class, regardess of the divison he is competing in toarrive at his team value, and afix a maximum team number say of 18 with a maximum number of shooters as 4 on a team I think you can kiss sandbagging away. At least in great part.

OR as I said, lets start slow and simple, only shooters in one division, and no more than one team member per classifiaction in a team as one criteria then a second criteria as a all G, all M etc team, again all with in one division.

Personally, I like the cross divisional teams since it allows for more variety, but unless we add the criteria for team selections into EzWin, it will be a bit cumbersome.

Jim Norman

[EricW]

If the "teams" are going to be cross-divisional, it's not going to work. Keep it simple and comprehensible.

My 2..

[shred]

If the "teams" are going to be cross-divisional, it's not going to work.  Keep it simple and comprehensible.

My 2..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup.. it's very hard to make work with separate-division teams (I have several years experience with this, as we did it at the Shirley Skinner Make-A-Wish matches, for which I have several top-team trophies).

An A-class shooter, for example, will likely finish with a higher percentage and a lot more points in L10 than they would in Limited, everything else being equal, just because the competition isn't usually as tough at most matches.