Problem with 9mm bulge

[tyman1876]

I’ve read every thread I can find on this topic but can’t seem to remedy the problem.

 

I have about a 10-12% failure when I case gauge my 9 major reloads. Most of those also fails the plunk test in my barrel. All of these rounds have a bulge on the case neck where the bullet is seated but just on one side of the case. Seems like the obvious answer is that I’m seating my bullets crooked but I’ve made sure to pay special attention to them being oriented correctly when entering the seating die. I’ve also read that not properly expanding the case neck could cause this. Adjusted the expander in and out and it doesn’t seem to make a difference. (Expanding with a LNL PDX tip on my powder measure). I seat and crimp in 2 steps so I know I’m not starting to crimp before it’s done seating. Lastly I figured it could be something with the mixed range brass that I’m using so I purchased 1000 brand new cases but the problem didn’t seem to change at all.

 

This is really getting to me and I can’t seem to figure it out. Any idea of something to try or something I may have missed?

 

If it helps at all my load is as follows:

 

7.8gr HS6

124gr Precision Delta JHP

1.165 COAL

[MNshooter]

I experienced a similar issue. I also thought I was seating the bullet straight but had the same failure rates as you.

Mr Bullet Feeder powder die was the recommended solution but I resolved cheaper. I flipped the seating stem to the alternate profile and poof, no more failures. It’s worth a shot.

[HoMiE]

When reloading 9 major cases it usually the bulged at base where the die doesn’t get down all the way on case during resizing. Before you even seat a bullet try the resized case first and see if that’s the problem area. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by HoMiE
Spelling

[zzt]

t, since you experimented with moving the PTX in or out, you must not be using the Hornady Bullet Feeder die.  That's good, because you almost have to use the PTX with it.

 

Buy a Mr. Bulletfeeder 2-step expander for the LnL.  Be sure to tell him you are using a Hornady, otherwise you'll get a part for a Dillon.  The MBF expander/funnel replaces the PTX.  The top step of the expander expands the case to bullet diameter.  You place the bullet in the case and it stands straight up and down.  It is held in by friction, so when your shell plate turns it doesn't fall out.    I adjust mine so there is only a microscopic bell on the case.  You don't need more than that with the MBF expander.

 

BTW, if you are interested in getting a bullet feeder, skip the Hornady and buy a MBF.  I works soooo much better.

[iflyskyhigh]

Couple of things.

If you want to skip my ramblings.

1) brass selection

2) Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die

If you’ve already tried these things disregard. For my ramblings read on. I apologize ahead of time for bad grammar and typos. I don’t care enough to proof read. You get the point.

9MM brass is crazy inconsistent (which I’m sure you know) from one manufacturer to the next. CBC and Aquila I have found are thicker and require much more force to resize, and seat on the initial resizing. If you’re using mixed brass and want to buy, and or sort brass you could start there.

I shoot to much and don’t want to sort 9MM brass. I enjoy reloading but it consumes enough of my life as it is.

After trying several brands of dies, including the Dillon (I use a 550B), I found that the Lee pistol dies do the best job of resizing once fired brass “fully”. The seating dies work well and are easy to adjust.

The real beauty of the sets is the Lee Factory Crimp die, and it will probably solve your problem. It does one last full pass over the length of the case with a carbide ring and has an adjustable crimp ring as well.

I can tell when I run a piece of the afore mentioned brass though it. You can feel the difference in resistance from the other brands of brass.

I can tell no perceivable difference in performance or accuracy, good or bad after using the Lee dies and the FCD. But I never have a finished bullet fail to “plunk”.

I used mixed brass through out all my various calibers and many shapes and weights of bullets. I will say that they are either FMJ or JHP. The only plated I shoot are 147gr 9MM for subsonic. I gave up on lead and coated bullets several years ago. Again, if used properly, which isn’t tough, the Lee FCD will not damage your bullets.

The only thing I use new brass for is self defense (no lectures please) rounds and I do resize before use.

Lots of people poo poo Lee stuff and specifically the factory crimp die. The fit and finish isn’t as good as the other brands. To be honest, there aren’t a whole lot of Lee products I would buy. But their dies are cheap, and they do what they are supposed too, and they are cheap.

I get consistent velocity and low SD’s (like single digit low), and excellent accuracy. So I don’t think you can say that the cheap Lee dies affect any of these things fo 99.9% of people. Maybe a few bullseye shooters might take issue, I don’t know?

People like what they like and every one has their reasons. In reloading, while many people are sure they have the correct and only answer, there are usually more than one way to skin a cat. I’m not claiming this is the only way to solve your issue, but I’m pretty sure it will. And it’s inexpensive and effective. The Lee FCD is cheap. Buy one off of amazon and see if works for you. If not, you’re out less than $20. Hell, amazon will probably take it back. Say it doesn’t work as advertised.

I load and shoot a a lot, so this is my observation over thousands and thousands of round, through a dozen different handguns, over a period of time.

Your mileage may vary.


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[iflyskyhigh]

When reloading 9 major cases it usually the bulged at base where the die doesn’t get down all the way on case during resizing. Before our even seat a bullet try the resized case first and see if that’s the problem area. 

[emoji1312]this


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[tyman1876]

I experienced a similar issue. I also thought I was seating the bullet straight but had the same failure rates as you.

Mr Bullet Feeder powder die was the recommended solution but I resolved cheaper. I flipped the seating stem to the alternate profile and poof, no more failures. It’s worth a shot.

I believe I’m using the correct stem but I’ll swap it out to the other one and give it a try. It’s worth a shot, thank you.

When reloading 9 major cases it usually the bulged at base where the die doesn’t get down all the way on case during resizing. Before our even seat a bullet try the resized case first and see if that’s the problem area. 

I double checked my resizing die and it appears to be set correctly. Also, I can see the bulge on the case neck where the bullet is seated. I also verified it with a micrometer.

t, since you experimented with moving the PTX in or out, you must not be using the Hornady Bullet Feeder die.  That's good, because you almost have to use the PTX with it.
 
Buy a Mr. Bulletfeeder 2-step expander for the LnL.  Be sure to tell him you are using a Hornady, otherwise you'll get a part for a Dillon.  The MBF expander/funnel replaces the PTX.  The top step of the expander expands the case to bullet diameter.  You place the bullet in the case and it stands straight up and down.  It is held in by friction, so when your shell plate turns it doesn't fall out.    I adjust mine so there is only a microscopic bell on the case.  You don't need more than that with the MBF expander.
 
BTW, if you are interested in getting a bullet feeder, skip the Hornady and buy a MBF.  I works soooo much better.

I’m using the PTX expander tip that goes in the end of the hornady powder measure. I do have a bullet feeder, it’s the hornady one. I certainly wish I bought a MBF but I’ll upgrade eventually.

[iflyskyhigh]

It’s not that you have your sizing for set up improperly, you most likely do have it right.

But, not all resizing dies size equally or the same amount.

That was my rambling point. For whatever reason some sizing dies do a better job of sizing all the way down the case.

In your case, sounds like it’s the top of the case after seating the projectile, which 9MM are especially know for. In which case something like the Factory Crimp Die will help. I promise.


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[zzt]

53 minutes ago, tyman1876 said:

I’m using the PTX expander tip that goes in the end of the hornady powder measure. I do have a bullet feeder, it’s the hornady one. I certainly wish I bought a MBF but I’ll upgrade eventually.

 

You can still give the MBF expander a try.  The only potential problem is with the amount of bell the Hornady feeder needs to work.    You need more bell than if using the MBF system, so you creep up on it.  You need enough to get the H die to release the bullet, but not so much that the seating die and crimp die can't remove the bell.  Too much bell and you'll have a rim around the top of the case after crimping.

[Hi-Power Jack]

What gun are you using ?   STI ?   Glock ?

 

I wonder if, at 1.165", you're close to your chamber's limit for OAL,

and 10% of them hit the rifling ?

 

Just a thought …   

[tyman1876]

It’s not that you have your sizing for set up improperly, you most likely do have it right.

But, not all resizing dies size equally or the same amount.

That was my rambling point. For whatever reason some sizing dies do a better job of sizing all the way down the case.

In your case, sounds like it’s the top of the case after seating the projectile, which 9MM are especially know for. In which case something like the Factory Crimp Die will help. I promise.


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Okay I understand. I missed that in your original post. I use a lee sizing die. I know they’re cheap, maybe it’d be worth trying a different one?

Also I crimp using a Lee FCD. My crimp gives the correct dimensions around the neck (.355 I believe but I looked it up and measured accordingly) and no crimp mark on the bullet when I pull them. I can see the bulge after seating and it seems like the FCD takes care of some but certainly not all.

What gun are you using ?   STI ?   Glock ?
 
I wonder if, at 1.165", you're close to your chamber's limit for OAL,
and 10% of them hit the rifling ?
 
Just a thought …   [emoji4]

Sorry I guess I should have included this as well. I’m shooting an STI DVC Open. 1.17 plunks just fine in my barrel so I don’t believe it’s a COAL problem.

[tyman1876]

 
You can still give the MBF expander a try.  The only potential problem is with the amount of bell the Hornady feeder needs to work.    You need more bell than if using the MBF system, so you creep up on it.  You need enough to get the H die to release the bullet, but not so much that the seating die and crimp die can't remove the bell.  Too much bell and you'll have a rim around the top of the case after crimping.

The MBF expander fits right into the Hornady measure like the PTX does?

[bowenbuilt]

Sounds like what you are experiencing is crooked bullet seating. This is caused by too much room within the inside diameter of your seating die.  Some dies will taper as they go up especially if they have a built in crimp. Lee dies are like this and are notorious for seating bullets crooked if the die body is screwed out too far. My suggestion to cure this is to screw the seating die body down until you feel the crimp start to happen and then back it off a full turn. You also want to make sure the die is straight. Seat a bullet and while the press arm is down with a bullet seated, loosen the locking ring and retighten it, this will straighten up the die. If none of this cures the problem then purchase a better seating die with less room inside so the bullet has no choice but the seat straight. There are a number of good seating dies on the market that will solve your problem. Redding makes probably the best.

[tyman1876]

Sounds like what you are experiencing is crooked bullet seating. This is caused by too much room within the inside diameter of your seating die.  Some dies will taper as they go up especially if they have a built in crimp. Lee dies are like this and are notorious for seating bullets crooked if the die body is screwed out too far. My suggestion to cure this is to screw the seating die body down until you feel the crimp start to happen and then back it off a full turn. You also want to make sure the die is straight. Seat a bullet and while the press arm is down with a bullet seated, loosen the locking ring and retighten it, this will straighten up the die. If none of this cures the problem then purchase a better seating die with less room inside so the bullet has no choice but the seat straight. There are a number of good seating dies on the market that will solve your problem. Redding makes probably the best.

Thank you very much for your help. This seems most logical to me at this point and time.

I will say that I seat and crimp in 2 different steps. I use a Hornady die to seat and trust me I’ve spent plenty of time slowly watching the bullet go into the die and though it’s hard to see (obviously) it just seems loose in there. Maybe you’re onto something. As someone suggested earlier in the thread I swapped stems out but that didn’t seem to make a difference.

I just went onto Midway and purchased a Redding Competition Seating Die. Even if that’s not my problem I think it’s still a good upgrade. If anyone else is looking for one they’re on sale right now. 9mm was $95 but they had a few different calibers on sale for around $50...

[36873687]

Idk if it’s been covered. But in 9 major or minor. I use lee u sizing die an lee factory crimp die.99 out of 100 pass the hundo. Sorry I read back u are using factory crimp die. Must be something with the bell in LnL

Edited June 12, 2018 by 36873687

[bigedp51]

I'm using a RCBS Rockchucker press and use a Lyman type "M" die that makes the bullet start straight in the case.

 

In the illustration below I only expand the case mouth onto step "B" that is approximately .001 larger than bullet diameter.  And the bullets will start straight and not tip during seating.

 

Normally if the seating stem does perfectly fit the bullet nose profile and with a bell type case mouth flare the bullet can tip when seating.

 

Note, the Lyman type "M" expander patent expired and Redding now has the same type stepped expander for straight inline seating.

.

[iflyskyhigh]

Did you say what brass you’re using? I’m sorry if you did. I didn’t see it anywhere.


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[tyman1876]

Did you say what brass you’re using? I’m sorry if you did. I didn’t see it anywhere.


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Originally it was mixed range brass. Thought that could be a contributor so I bought some new brass from Everglades but had the same results.

[iflyskyhigh]

 

Originally it was mixed range brass. Thought that could be a contributor so I bought some new brass from Everglades but had the same results.

 

 

What’s the head stamp on the brass from Everglades. Is it there own?

 

I think you said you did the “plunk” test and it passed, right?

 

Have you tried backing the bullets down in 0.010” increments just to see what happens?

 

I run my PD 124 grs JHP @ 1.080” in my open gun.

 

I tried longer OAL, but actually discovered shorter was better. Daryl just started a good post regarding this the other day.

 

When I was loading the bullets longer I often found that my test round would plunk, but then several rounds in many would fail.

 

I would find the “longest” most stubborn one, then, I just kept backing them down 0.010” at a time till it felt as though it was just into or just of the lands. Then I’d back it down another .010”- .020”.

 

Now that I load shorter I don’t have the issue much any more after initial set up.

 

I seat to length (1.080”), run it into the FCD, with the crimp plug backed all the way out. Then I screw the crimp plug down till it’s hand tight again the case rim. I pull the round and see if gauges and passes the plunk test. If not, which it usually won’t, especially with 9MM, I turn the crimp plug just a little and run it back into the FCD. Try it again. I repeat the process until it does. After I have it set I load several rounds and repeat the process with this handful of rounds incase there is one that is “bigger” than the others. Using mixed once fired brass after all. I make sure the “biggest” one fits and plunks, then pretty much guaranteed the rest will.

 

I had to have the throat of my Lonewolf 9MM G34 barrel opened up. It was giving me fits with all different shapes and weights of bullets. But that doesn’t really apply to what’s above. Just a side note. I’m using a Glock 17 Open Gun, also with a Lonewolf barrel. Also very tight throat. Didn’t bother to open that up though. Shoots great at the OAL I want so didn’t see the need. If you want to run your round really long you might consider opening the throat. I just shorten the COAL thought. Seems much easier.

 

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[zzt]

l, the MBF expander fits into the powder measure just lint the PTX.  You might have to make a small vertical adjustment, but that's all.  The MBF expander does exactly what the Lee m expander does.  It opens the case as illustrated above.  The bullet feeder drops a bullet in.  It is held vertically, and under tension.  It will not cant or move when turning to the next station.  It is decidedly better than the PTX and works perfectly with the Hornady seating die. 

[tyman1876]

Little update. I bought the Redding seating Die and I’ll never use a different seating Die again. It completely fixed the problem, which was certainly the bullet being seated at an angle. I recently loaded up all my Ammo for Area 7 and 100% passed the case gauge and plunk. Well worth the money. I could put at bullet is crooked at say a 25 degree and the die straightened it out every time.

I also purchased the MBF expander. It is smaller in diameter than my hornady expander so it will not work in my powder measure. It falls right out. Is there one for Dillon and one for hornady?

Regardless, thank you everyone for the help.

[rooster]

The Redding die also keeps the brass straight if you set it up correctly.  The way you do is to over  bell the case mouth a little.  Measure the case mouth after you have run it in the die, that is the measurement you want at the powder drop. It’s okay to be a little over the die keeps the brass straight to receive the bullet.  In loading 9 mm my case mouth at the bell station is .385, the Redding die closes it up to .381 because the sides of the brass stay in contact with the sides of the die wall.  When setting up the brass you have to use a new piece every time because it will give you funky measurements if you keep using the same piece over and over.

[BigMoneyGrip]

I experience this ever so often. If the case is crooked when the mouth is flared, it will bulge the case towards the base of where the bullet seats. I load on a singe stage, so this might not be the problem that you have, but would be another place to check.

[ddc]

7 hours ago, tyman1876 said:

Little update. I bought the Redding seating Die and I’ll never use a different seating Die again. It completely fixed the problem, which was certainly the bullet being seated at an angle. I recently loaded up all my Ammo for Area 7 and 100% passed the case gauge and plunk. Well worth the money. I could put at bullet is crooked at say a 25 degree and the die straightened it out every time.

I also purchased the MBF expander. It is smaller in diameter than my hornady expander so it will not work in my powder measure. It falls right out. Is there one for Dillon and one for hornady?

Regardless, thank you everyone for the help.

Do you have the Redding die number for the seating die? There seem to be several options.

 

And yes, you need to get the MBF funnel that is specific for your powder measure. The Hornady and Dillon funnels are not identical.

Edited June 22, 2018 by ddc

[bowenbuilt]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:40 PM, tyman1876 said:

Little update. I bought the Redding seating Die and I’ll never use a different seating Die again. It completely fixed the problem, which was certainly the bullet being seated at an angle. I recently loaded up all my Ammo for Area 7 and 100% passed the case gauge and plunk. Well worth the money. I could put at bullet is crooked at say a 25 degree and the die straightened it out every time.

I also purchased the MBF expander. It is smaller in diameter than my hornady expander so it will not work in my powder measure. It falls right out. Is there one for Dillon and one for hornady?

Regardless, thank you everyone for the help.

There are a lot of people who believe that crooked bullet seating is the fault of the expander die. The expander die has absolutely nothing to do with this. When you have a seating die with too much space near the seater plug it allows the bullet start at an angle and stays that way  through the whole process. A good seating die will straighten a bullet no matter how much of an angle it starts at or no matter what kind of expander you are using.  Too much space, not adjusted correctly or just plain defective will seat a bullet crooked every time. You also have to keep in mind the all die bodies are threaded and most seating stems are also. If the die does not recieve it's final adjustment under tension with a bullet seated in the die the threading will always make the die slightly out of plumb. The MBF expander is my favorite for progressive presses, no more worries about the bullets falling out of place or scraping any coatings. I always do a mirror polish on them before installation to help with the grabbing of cases after the powder drop.  I have several RL550's with case feeders and polishing the nose of the MBF makes things run smooth as glass and speeds them up even without the bullet feeder.