223 bullet selection, How?

[Needham]

Total scoped rifle novice 

I want to reload to get the most out of my gun and to shoot more for the same money. 

My question is how do you select the BRAND of bullet for reloading? 

I have been trying different  factory ammo. I have noticed my gun does not group anything hornady(1.5 moa or worse even with match) 

Yet with "PPU MATCH" is shoot moa or better

So is it reasonable to think I should buy PPU bullets to reload as my gun "likes them better"???? 

[TonytheTiger]

You end up buying a little bit of everything till you find what the barrel really likes. Then when you get your next barrel you have a bunch of partial bullet boxes lying around to get that barrel up and running.

[Don_B]

6 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

You end up buying a little bit of everything till you find what the barrel really likes. Then when you get your next barrel you have a bunch of partial bullet boxes lying around to get that barrel up and running.

And then you have to decide on which powder to use. 

[Needham]

7 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

You end up buying a little bit of everything till you find what the barrel really likes. Then when you get your next barrel you have a bunch of partial bullet boxes lying around to get that barrel up and running.

 

so my thinking of take what "factory load" I shoot best and reload that brand bullet to make it "better" is a flawed theory?

 

I am really trying to get away from trying 10 bullets/several different components. Granted I know I am going to have to try a few powders. Though I am trying to narrow down as much as possible from doing my research.

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Same thing with loaded ammo - just have to try them in YOUR gun and

see what it likes and doesn't like.

 

You can find some of the steel ammo for 20 cents/round - tough to

reload for much less.  And, a good sale on brass ammo can come

in at 25 cents/round.     

[Needham]

5 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Same thing with loaded ammo - just have to try them in YOUR gun and

see what it likes and doesn't like.

 

You can find some of the steel ammo for 20 cents/round - tough to

reload for much less.  And, a good sale on brass ammo can come

in at 25 cents/round.     

 

my reasoning for reloading is I can reload a 75g for the same price I can buy bulk 55g. A much better round for the same money, more "bang for the buck" , Right???

 

However, I am not trying sierra bullets, I am scared I will like them too much and they are expenisve/ hard to find in big bulk.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Do you need the 75's ?   Shooting over 300 yards ?

 

Lots of people shoot thousands of 55's for close range stuff

and shoot hundreds of 75's for long distance.

 

No advantage to a 75 for bay shooting.

 

I don't see what state you're in, so I don't know if you're shooting

long distance ???

[Needham]

Quote

 

 

I should add, this is an AR15.

16 inch ballistics advantage Hanson 16 inch barrel.

[Needham]

Just now, Hi-Power Jack said:

Do you need the 75's ?   Shooting over 300 yards ?

 

Lots of people shoot thousands of 55's for close range stuff

and shoot hundreds of 75's for long distance.

 

No advantage to a 75 for bay shooting.

 

I don't see what state you're in, so I don't know if you're shooting

long distance ???

 

I am in Arkansas.

I can do long range 300+

I want to do a mix of all: some bench queen, some "tactical shooting", some long range 300-600. I really like shooting steel, BUT I want to know when I set down at a bench my gun is the best it can be.

Plus, to me, it seems more cost effective to reload a more premium round (75g) than is a 55g round. meaning, I can do it all short and long with a 75g, but I cant do it all with a 55g, its a tradeoff. Does that make sense?

[Don_B]

One thing you need to keep in mind is that a rifle very well may not shoot both 55 and 75 gr bullets accurately. Usually a faster twist is needed to stabilize heavier bullets. 

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, Needham said:

 

so my thinking of take what "factory load" I shoot best and reload that brand bullet to make it "better" is a flawed theory?

 

Not necessarily flawed but a lot of us don't shoot factory ammo so we never even thought of that methodology. But I really would hate to just pick one brand and limit myself, there's so many great options these days. 

 

Shooting 75's inside of 200 does sound needlessly expensive though, it's really not too complicated to have a lighter weight cheap blasting load and a heavy distance load. 

[Needham]

2 hours ago, Don_B said:

One thing you need to keep in mind is that a rifle very well may not shoot both 55 and 75 gr bullets accurately. Usually a faster twist is needed to stabilize heavier bullets. 

 

Don I don't really want to shoot 55g, I prefer a "do all" round for simple sake.

 

barrel is 1/7, so im good there

 

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Not necessarily flawed but a lot of us don't shoot factory ammo so we never even thought of that methodology. But I really would hate to just pick one brand and limit myself, there's so many great options these days. 

 

Shooting 75's inside of 200 does sound needlessly expensive though, it's really not too complicated to have a lighter weight cheap blasting load and a heavy distance load. 

 

got ya! I'm sure was I "get into" I will have 3,4,5, loads, but in the beginning I am trying to be as simple as possible, as my main usage is self defense, SHTF, fun Saturday afternoon of shooting (often)

 

so now I have the question, even though hornady 75g match, 68g match and frontier 75g don't shoot well for me, there is a chance with reloads it could be perfect with the right load workup???

your advice is dully noted!

[Don_B]

The 1-7. barrel is good for 77,75 and most likely 69 gr bullets. It might even shoot 55  ok. You'll just have to try them. 

 

Yes you you might find a good load with the Hornady bullets but I think I would try others since you did not have good results with factory loads. 

[practical_man]

For High Power Service Rifle across the coure shooting, th Sierra 69 is about as good as it gets if you one one load to do it all. It’s a little light for 600 tho. 

 

Varget and 4895 are decent powders for my barrel. They are both a pain in the neck compared to a ball powder. 

 

For your carbine with a shorter barrel your lid I’ll be a little different. There are more variables than bullet and powder to get a load that will shoot subMOA. Neck Tension and fit to throat are big considerations. That may be one of the reasons the PPU shoots well for you. It’s relatively thick brass. Hornady brass is thinner. At least in my experience. I shoot both headstamps, along with A host of others.  Nothing wrong with PPU or Hornady brass. 

 

For bulk Close range (inside 300 yards) the Hornady 55g bullet (2267B) works fine for me from a generic 1:9 barrel using any H322, Win 748, or AA2230. The differences aren’t statistically significant among accuracy or SD data in my carbine. 

 

That said, cannelured bullets as a rule are less accurate on target compared to non-cannelures of the same construction. Something to consider if you don’t need to crimp or glue for full auto applications. 

 

Thats a a long way to say pick what you are confident in, the start adjusting seating depth and powder charge till you get ther best results. Chrono you loads early and often. 

 

Chrono early and often. Yes it’s important. Yes a chrono costs $100. It’s the best money I ever spent on load development. Yes, someone will probably shoot your chrono at some point. Buy and use one anyway. 

 

When I start from scratch for Service Rifle I use new Winchester brass. Size and trim to length. Uniform the flash holes (it only has to be done once). Uniform the case necks (it only has to be done once). Then get to loading with a green box of Bullets. Seat and crimp in seperate steps. 

 

For short range ammo, I skip most of the brass prep. Just segregate by head stamp and adjust the dies for each batch. 

 

If PPU components are working for you then there’s no reason to change. Just get to work testing and documenting the data so you can objectively assess performance.  

 

In testing, I would recommend a minimum of 10 shot groups to give you a decent assessment. 

[Don_B]

This is very good information and it gives you an idea on how involved you can get if you want. 

[Needham]

Yes it is! 

I'm looking forward to the next few months and making a good load. 

[GetAwayDriva]

If you want to shoot an accurate 55 gr (I don’t know if your 1 in 7 will like it) we have found great success with the nosler 55 gr ballistic tips.  I had an 1 3/4” group at 300 yards with that bullet.  And we shoot out to 600 or so yards with that bullet at the 3 gun events we go to.  

[12glocks]

From what your are describing the Hornady 75 gr BTHP (16 cents a bullet) or Nosler 77 BTHP (19 cents a bullet) would fit the bill.  It looks like there is no short range bay shooting for you but 600 yard shooting is.  One of those bullets over CFE 223 or TAC are accurate for a lot people, or, if you prefer a temp insensitive extruded propellant something on the order of H4895 or Varget or 8208 may be in order.  It should be reasonable to expect good accuracy around 2500 FPS out of that 16" barrel. That would be a good start anyway.  For me, and I shoot a lot of 223/5.56 those heavy match type bullets are very accurate compared to the bulk FMJ's.  The bullet prices I listed were for Powder Valley last time I looked. 

[Needham]

6 minutes ago, 12glocks said:

From what your are describing the Hornady 75 gr BTHP (16 cents a bullet) or Nosler 77 BTHP (19 cents a bullet) would fit the bill.  It looks like there is no short range bay shooting for you but 600 yard shooting is.  One of those bullets over CFE 223 or TAC are accurate for a lot people, or, if you prefer a temp insensitive extruded propellant something on the order of H4895 or Varget or 8208 may be in order.  It should be reasonable to expect good accuracy around 2500 FPS out of that 16" barrel. That would be a good start anyway.  For me, and I shoot a lot of 223/5.56 those heavy match type bullets are very accurate compared to the bulk FMJ's.  The bullet prices I listed were for Powder Valley last time I looked. 

 

I am shooting at my folks place and the surrounding farm land, so I can go from muzzle to any length I want as far as distance goes. I am really hoping to get the Hndy 75 BTHP to work as I can get it down to 14 cents a bullet and 30 or 31 cents total for high quality "match grade" reloads, which is the same price as bought 55g, which is exciting.

 

the Hndy stuff is the cheapest stuff out there if you buy in bulk, you can probably get the PPU stuff down to the same price too if you shop. but that's the reason I havnt and wont even try the sierra/black hills stuff........ Im scared i'll like it!!! and its the most expenisve LOL

[12glocks]

7 minutes ago, Needham said:

 

I am shooting at my folks place and the surrounding farm land, so I can go from muzzle to any length I want as far as distance goes. I am really hoping to get the Hndy 75 BTHP to work as I can get it down to 14 cents a bullet and 30 or 31 cents total for high quality "match grade" reloads, which is the same price as bought 55g, which is exciting.

 

the Hndy stuff is the cheapest stuff out there if you buy in bulk, you can probably get the PPU stuff down to the same price too if you shop. but that's the reason I havnt and wont even try the sierra/black hills stuff........ Im scared i'll like it!!! and its the most expenisve LOL

The Hornady 75 BTHP is my 3 gun match bullet and I have shot 1000's and 1000's of them.  That bullet shoots sub moa in all 3 of our match rifles and friends as well.  I have tested the Sierra's and they are very good, I really love the TMK.  But the Hornady is working for 3 gun.  If your not shooting high volume why not shoot a premium bullet.  Buy a box of all of them, see what your rifle likes best and run it.  The Sierra's have a reputation for being more consistant at longer ranges.  I need to test at 600 yards to verify that.

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by 12glocks

[Want2BS8ed]

Don't assume that a heavy bullet that is accurate at long distances is necessarily accurate at short distances as well. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even in ballistics.

Bryan Litz's "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting" is a good read on what works and why.

Based on your reply's on how you will be shooting, I think you would be better served (and save a bit more money to boot) with a lighter bullet. It's tough to beat a 69g Sierra Matchking as a do all target round out to 300 yards.

If you are going to be a bit closer in and want something that might actually be useful on small game (and still be as accurate as any target round) - my go to load is 25g of IMR 8208 XBR under a Sierra 55g HPBT (#1390) loaded to mag length at 2.260". Its a magic combination. I've run it in bolt guns, AR's, 16" barrels to 24" barrels and 1"-in-7" to 1"-in-12" twists and I have yet to find a gun it's not scary accurate in - including a $119 SS factory second Savage Axis I picked up from Cabela's last Black Friday.

Plastic stock, plain Jane trigger, worked up powder ladders and COALs - and the magic recipe didn't disappoint... sub-MOA. Dropped it in a bedded Boyd stock, added a new trigger and its now sub-1/2 MOA.

Don't discount the lowly 55g...

M


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[Kaldor]

Id do what most of the guys here are saying.  Load 55s for bulk blasting out to 200, and then good 68+gr bullets for longer range or bench shooting.  A quality 7 twist will shoot a 55 with no issues.

 

For 55s there really are only 2 options IMHO.  Both from Hornady, either the FMJBT, or the SP.  They run about 7 cents a piece in quantity.  The SPs just had their base design changed so they have a slight boat tail on them, making them much easier to load.  I have switched to the SPs as they dont tear up steels as much, and they can double as a decent small game bullet.  Not a bad personal defense bullet either!

 

For 68+gr, personally I shoot alot of 68gr Hornady BTHP Match.  The price is decent and you can buy them in bulk.  Accuracy runs right around a 1/2" in my gun.  This is one of those things where you will have to play around to see whats best for you.  Ive tested everything from Hornady and Sierra up to 77gr, and I keep coming back to the 68's.  

 

Primers...  A piece of advice?  Ive never had a need for a magnum primer, or a milspec primer like a CC 41 in 223, ever.  And that includes some pretty hot loads with some heavier bullets.  Stick with standard primers.  My favorites are still CC 400s.  

 

Powders?  I use all Hodgdon powder, so other may have very valid points on other manufacturers.  Right now I only use 3 powders for 223.  H335 for 55gr blaster ammo, and 8208 XBR for accuracy loads.  The 3rd, and Im transitioning to it, is CFE 223, which will be used for 55gr loads as I can likely get better velocity from it as it burns slower.  All 3 of those powder will run thru a rotary drop and meter very accurately.  I love Varget for my 308, but its such a PITA on a progressive when Im trying to get some work done.  

My brass is all range or once fired.  I build accuracy loads on Lake City as its a known quantity, even if the year headstamp isnt identical.  Blammo 55gr ammo is whatever comes out of the bucket.  

[Old3GNR]

No need for heavy bullets if max range is 300 and in fact some need long range to stabilize.  I found Sierra Match King 52 HPBT to be very good to 300.  Eventually went to SMK 69s for distance and Hornady 55 for short range.  I'm now developing loads for PRS type shooting and have settled on the Hornady 73 ELD through a 7.7 twist Krieger 20" barrel.

[cvincent]

No need for heavy bullets if max range is 300 and in fact some need long range to stabilize.  I found Sierra Match King 52 HPBT to be very good to 300.  Eventually went to SMK 69s for distance and Hornady 55 for short range.  I'm now developing loads for PRS type shooting and have settled on the Hornady 73 ELD through a 7.7 twist Krieger 20" barrel.

What’s your load with the 73 ELDs?


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[Old3GNR]

I'm still experimenting but currently shooting 22.8 8208, CCI BR4 , Starline brass, 2.255".  Starline runs a little heavy, am trying 23.7 in R-P brass.  Getting 2780 fps in Starline load.