JAFO Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) With regards to #6 of App D8: Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** What constitutes a variant of the Sig brace? I have a friend who wants to use a pistol with a Shockwave Blade brace. Looking at it, it looks an awful lot like a stock, although it's thinner. It doesn't have straps or anything like the Sig brace. Was the point of this item to prohibit pistols in PCC (i.e., they must have a stock), or was it to avoid violating ATF rules by people inevitably shouldering braces? With #6 as written, I've told him he's out of luck using his pistol, but I wanted to see what others were thinking on this, especially since ATF has reversed their position. Edited October 3, 2017 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobert1 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Looking at the website. It looks legal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I'm going from memory, but I believe the ATF could rule that an AR pistol with a brace that was shot with the brace touching the shooter's shoulder could be reclassified as an SBR and become an NFA item. Sounds silly but what doesn't when we are dealing with a government organization. I've not heard of any shooter getting busted for this so it may just be speculation on the part of someone with more spare time than they should have. From my reading elsewhere, I believe that the ATF ruling only covers one brand of brace. I don't remember which company went to the trouble of getting ATF approval, but until there is a blanket ruling that applies to all braces, I don't think the USPSA will further address it in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 The PCC rules state that it "must have stock attached. . ." Bottom line is the Shockwave Brace isn't a stock, so not legal for PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobert1 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I guess we need a definition for stock. I went to the website. While they call it a stabilizer I see no difference between that, and many 3ed party stocks. What an I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casarez Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 A weapon is usually a pistol when sold in that config. Adding a brace of any sort (or "stabilizer") does not change this designation and it remains a pistol. Adding a true stock changes it to a Rifle. If the barrel is short enough it is a SBR and requires a tax stamp. The PCC division is not for pistols. It is for Rifles/Carbines. Frankly I do not blame the BoD for not going down this road. Considering that all it takes is for yet another letter to come out making it illegal again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 4 hours ago, JAFO said: With regards to #6 of App D8: Must have stock attached and be capable of being fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed** What constitutes a variant of the Sig brace? I have a friend who wants to use a pistol with a Shockwave Blade brace. Looking at it, it looks an awful lot like a stock, although it's thinner. It doesn't have straps or anything like the Sig brace. Was the point of this item to prohibit pistols in PCC (i.e., they must have a stock), or was it to avoid violating ATF rules by people inevitably shouldering braces? With #6 as written, I've told him he's out of luck using his pistol, but I wanted to see what others were thinking on this, especially since ATF has reversed their position. Troy told me specifically that the blade is a brace and not legal for PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 54 minutes ago, bobert1 said: I guess we need a definition for stock. I went to the website. While they call it a stabilizer I see no difference between that, and many 3ed party stocks. What an I missing? The ATF actually refers to it as a "shoulder stock". It all comes down to intent/purpose in their recent rulings. If the "thing" attached to the back of the weapon was intended to be shouldered, it's a stock. If it was intended to stabilize the weapon without being shouldered, it's not a stock. For a short time, the ATF had ruled that an end user could actually "repurpose" a stabilizing brace into a stock by shouldering the weapon, thus creating an illegal SBR. That has since changed. The companies that have designed stabilizing braces for pistols have asked the ATF for clarification and I believe most of them (KAK, SB, Sig, Thordsen) have letters stating that the ATF doesn't view their products as a stock. So, long story short--you would need to look at each product in question to see how the company designed it and how they intended for it to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, tyler2you said: So, long story short--you would need to look at each product in question to see how the company designed it and how they intended for it to be used. Not really. You need a rifle for PCC (because PCC requires a stock). A rifle has a stock. A brace isn't a stock. Something with a brace is a pistol, not a rifle. Not valid in PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I would like to see a holster for that pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Not really. You need a rifle for PCC (because PCC requires a stock). A rifle has a stock. A brace isn't a stock. Something with a brace is a pistol, not a rifle. Not valid in PCC. Yeah, my comment was related to what is considered a stock. I understand a rifle has a stock, but bobert1 was asking how you would know the difference between a stock and a brace (you have to look at it's design/intended purpose). Edited October 3, 2017 by tyler2you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, HI5-O said: I would like to see a holster for that pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, tyler2you said: Yeah, my comment was related to what is considered a stock. I understand a rifle has a stock, but bobert1 was asking how you would know the difference between a stock and a brace. Does it have a stock adapter or a pistol tube? That's literally the difference. Edit: And, for NFA purposes, a pistol has also NEVER been a rifle, meaning you built it as a pistol and it has stayed that way. Edited October 3, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 47 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Not a legal holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Their tax stamp, or lack there of, tells you if it's a brace or a stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Well, KAK specifically markets it as a brace, so that answers the question. Reading their webpage on discussion with the ATF, I think they are getting around the definition of a stock based on semantics like "it can't be permanently affixed, so don't use red Loctite" and "length of pull has to be < 13.5", so don't use the locating pin holes beyond that." FWIW, when I told him it wasn't allowed, he said he'd apply for the stamp and wait to install a true stock. For now, he can use it at another local (non-USPSA) club that will allow it for their PCC division. Edited October 3, 2017 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 18 minutes ago, JAFO said: FWIW, when I told him it wasn't allowed, he said he'd apply for the stamp and wait to install a true stock. For now, he can use it at another local (non-USPSA) club that will allow it for their PCC division. Gotta love Outlaw matches. We thought bringing rifles to pistol matches was bad - they're allowing pistols at rifle matches! The horror! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 Oh, you have to go into that one not caring if things are equitable - just go to have fun. I brought my .44 Mag Super Redhawk for a "magnum pistol" stage at one of those matches. Another guy brought his AK pistol. C'est la vie. They allow loading to full capacity in their Stock Auto Division. But when I go, I either treat it like USPSA practice and use my Production rig with 10 round mags, or I shoot my carry gun. It's a good time with good people, but they are generally far less concerned with the competitive side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, JAFO said: Oh, you have to go into that one not caring if things are equitable - just go to have fun. I brought my .44 Mag Super Redhawk for a "magnum pistol" stage at one of those matches. Another guy brought his AK pistol. C'est la vie. They allow loading to full capacity in their Stock Auto Division. But when I go, I either treat it like USPSA practice and use my Production rig with 10 round mags, or I shoot my carry gun. It's a good time with good people, but they are generally far less concerned with the competitive side of things. Nothing wrong with that at all. My .460 needs some exercise now and then... with .45 Long Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler2you Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 3 hours ago, mreed911 said: Does it have a stock adapter or a pistol tube? That's literally the difference. Edit: And, for NFA purposes, a pistol has also NEVER been a rifle, meaning you built it as a pistol and it has stayed that way. Nothing says you can't have a carbine or rifle tube (receiver extension) on a pistol. Plenty of people install the Thorsden brace on a standard carbine extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 If it's classified as a rifle or SBR according to the ATF then it's legal for PCC; if it's classified as a pistol then it's not. At least that's my understanding of what that rule means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 11:11 PM, Southpaw said: If it's classified as a rifle or SBR according to the ATF then it's legal for PCC; if it's classified as a pistol then it's not. At least that's my understanding of what that rule means. Machine guns are allowed too, you just can't switch it to hoser mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 On October 3, 2017 at 11:11 PM, Southpaw said: If it's classified as a rifle or SBR according to the ATF then it's legal for PCC; if it's classified as a pistol then it's not. At least that's my understanding of what that rule means. Southpaw nailed it. Doesn't matter what's on the buffer tube, matters if it's a pistol or rifle/SBR. You could put a Shockwave or Sig Brace on a rifle/SBR, and it would be PCC legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted November 1, 2017 Author Share Posted November 1, 2017 44 minutes ago, OPENB said: Southpaw nailed it. Doesn't matter what's on the buffer tube, matters if it's a pistol or rifle/SBR. You could put a Shockwave or Sig Brace on a rifle/SBR, and it would be PCC legal. If you look at the rule I quoted in the opening post, no you could not add a Sig brace and be legal for PCC, regardless of whether the gun was considered a pistol or rifle. They are specifically prohibited in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 My RMI friend said that's not the context that was written in. It's in reference to "no Sig Brace pistols shot as rifles". If I have a legal rifle, I can have a stock made of cardboard & bubble gum. A rifle is a rifle, "able to be shot from the shoulder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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