EricW Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 What is people's vibe on chamber flags? Would having all long guns chamber-flagged at matches add a measure of safety and expediency to gun handling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 I think it just adds another margin of safety to the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Why not? They cost two dollars and they take two seconds to use. Just my two cents worth. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 They are required at high power rifle matches nowadays, why should IPSC be any different. They make sense, they just take getting into a new usage habit. I can also see there being a lot of resistance to using them too ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 I always feel a bit better when I see them in a long gun. I have never broken one of them but I sure have lost my fair share of them. Make them mandatory for all long guns. As in "Unload and show clear; if clear, hammer down; place chamber flag; range is clear." They also make nice match freebies...for those of us that lose them all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rschoon Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 A person can't be to safe. Especially for us newbees. The only issue are those coming to a match who may not have one. They would need to be made available for all. I personally have gone thru a couple doing highpower many years ago and am not sure if I have any left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Anything that makes people "feel" more secure will always be supported, BUT this can also lead to slopy weapons handeling, Think I'm wrong, go visit a trap range. "It's okay, it's open", sound familier? I have seen some terrible weapons handeling at Hi Power matches, " it's OK it's flagged I know it's a shout in the dark, but I hate to see the dumbing down of the sport and weapons handeling. Now with that said, what will be the penalty for not having a flag? Say I walk up to the line carrying my rifle /shotgun muzzel up, and along the way the flag has fallen out, is it a match D.Q.? After all it is a safety violation. Is it a procedural? Is it a dressing down by the RO? How far do we go with this? I really am not being argumentative, I really want to know. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Kurt makes a good point about them being prone to falling out. They might work better if they were designed to have the bolt let forward on them so they stay in place while the guns are carried around. If it filled the chamber and was clamped in place by the bolt, it would be a very good thing as long as visibility of it being in place was maintained. It's just like having your hammer back accidentally, you rectify the situation and move on, no penalties needed. Just like with eyes and ears, you re-inforce it until it's second nature, no need to get medieval over it ;-) I agree that nothing substitutes good gun handling in the first place, but added measures can help. I personally like the idea of having all long gun bolts forward on a chamber filling high vis flag. I have never liked the bolt open aspect of long gun handling and the tendency of them to slam shut anyway if even looked at sideways. Whats up with this versus slide and hammer forward for holstered pistols. A flag held in place by the bolt is equal, or better than being in a holster IMHO. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sahlberg Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Chamber flags would be a nice idea to add that extra level of safety to all. mandating them may be tough, however if I was a Match Director and gave them out in the shooters packet, a DQable safety offense it is NOT but I would surely want them used if they were provided. A company called EZ Caps (no website that I know of) makes a soft vinyl / plastic unbreakable BRIGHT NEON YELLOW 3' long X 1/2" wide bolt thread protector that is pliable and would not leave anything undesirable in your chamber or bolt face. These only cost .25 each. You may see some soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 I don't understand how a thread protector is in any way related to a chamber flag. A muzzle thread protector may provide a way to visually confirm that the gun handle thinks the gun is unloaded, but a flag allows you to see that is *IS* unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AH6IP Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Has anyone had an AD with their long guns while NOT on a stage of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Why do you feel they are needed on long guns but not handguns?-----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Larry: Because handguns have holsters. FWIW...I have seen handguns with chamber flags...not at USPSA but at hangun silhouette matches eons ago. No chamber flag is not a DQ until it happens repeatedly and it is obvious the person is just being a jerk about it. Then it becomes an "unsportsman-like" DQ. The ones that USPSA sells in their online store happen to be my favorite at the moment. I also like the bright yellow ones that go up the magwell of an AR and block the bolt but they are several times more expensive than the little flags. I agree that chamber flags are no substitute for safe gun handling. Just because it is flagged doesn't mean you don't get the match DQ for unsafe handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 No, because we already have strict saftey rules in place. A chamber flag, can, IMHO, lead to careless behaviour (I have a chamber flag, so I can do whatever I want with my "unloaded" gun), which I have detailed before in other posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Kimel, I've seen two handguns show up at LAMR that were hot. I"ve never seen a long gun with a open bolt open(or closed) at LAMR that was hot. But the handguns were in holsters. Thats kind of a fakey, feeley goodey kind of a deal. I really don't know if I'm aganist or for chamber flags but they are not a replacement for much of anything. Being just a little unsure of some things can be good.-----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 ObNote: chamber flags *are* required. See 5.2.1 in the USPSA rifle and shotgun rulebooks Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 Whoa folks! Nobody's talking about DQ's. All I'm suggesting is that chamber flags could be used as a safety measure while guns are uncased. Then, a shooter could bring a flagged long-gun to the line and do the case/uncase business on their own time. Let's keep on our happy faces, OK? The thing that really bugs me is that I don't like closed actions on long guns, for the simple reason that the muzzle direction is uncontrolled, unlike with a holstered pistol. My personal preference is that all actions on long guns be physically and visibly blocked open. Is putting the chamber flags that the MD provides in your shooter's packet into your chamber really too much to ask? If we have to threaten people with DQ's just to act like ladies and gentlemen, maybe those shooters shouldn't be invited to the match to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 Bruce, Talk about egg omlette on my face. I searched the multi-gun rules and not the rifle/shotgun rules and totally missed it. 5.2.1.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, thatis clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the rifle is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Rule 2.4.1). 2.4.1 Refers to the Safety Area So, chamber flags ARE required for USPSA matches, that seems to be clear. I bought mine in bulk for something like $1.60 ea from DPMS. Turns out I could have bought them for $1.25 ea from Boonie Packer (Redi-Mag). =============================================== And I understand what Bill S. is talking about. He's talking about a piece of round polyurethane that you stuff into the chamber to block the bolt open. The NRA requires that the flag actually physically sit in the chamber. Do we think that's important to require? Double-extreme overkill? Chamber Flags for $1.25 ea (delivered) from Redi-Mag.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 As long as we're letting people handle rifles and shotguns in their vehicles and carry them around off the course, they should be flagged. USPSA should buy a few hundred and distribute them in shooter packets at the 3 gun nats. The standard of long gun handling/safety outside courses is piss-poor. Lots of guns pointed at people. Also note the standard or ROing isn't terrific: I know somebody who was told "gun clear" with a loaded magazine in the gun at the 3 gun nats. Then there are the people who thought their shotguns were unloaded but had rounds in the tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 I have made some from 1/4 yellow or orange polly rope. Just tie a overhand knot, cut to about 2 in on each side, melt one end and fray the other. Stick the melted end in the chamber and let the bolt down on it. For the shotgun use about a ft. of the same rope, double it and tie a overhand knot leaving a 2in loop, fray the free ends. Stick the loop in the chamber and lower the bolt. Safe, visible and secure.----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AH6IP Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 So, it's a moot point for USPSA-it's a requirement while uncased, etc. Obviously, for other matches it will up to the MD, and if it makes you feel any safer, then flag your chamber. You just can't control everything-i.e.-is his bolt open or closed, hell, is it loaded? while carried around in the case? You can contingency this one for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 IMHO, actions in competition should be flagged whether cased or not. My AR likes to close it's bolt with so much as the slightest bump, so "cased, but action open" is just an inherently unsafe condition - at least with *my particular AR*. I also have the same problem with my 1100: it's virtually impossible to keep the chamber open with the EZ loader, be it in a case or just carrying the dang thing. I have the smashed fingers to prove it, too. Hence the reasons I bought a dozen chamber flags. I'll probably buy a dozen or two more as I seem to lose them as fast as Kimel. Please, do not REMOTELY interpret the use of flags as a license to point long guns at people. Even with flagged weapons I, personally, make a point to not swing a muzzle anyone's direction. I do think the added safety is well worth the 5 bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Just out of curiosity, to use a chamber flag (any brand chamber flag), can the bolt on an AR be open, or does it have to be closed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Recommended? Yes. Required? No - not unless they are given out by registration/sign up at the start of every competition. In bulk, they cost well under $1 so the cost at a $20 or $25 event is negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmilk9 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Shoot some other type of firearms discipline and see how safe they are compared to us 3 gun/IPSC/IDPA shooters, you will be surprised. I shot in a couple clay tournaments and holy smokes, people putting the barrel of their gun on their foot, slinging a semi auto over their shoulder at a whole crowd, no one seemed to care except me, a couple guys i was around and i mentioned it to them, they seem to think im over paranoid. So, my .02 cents would be, carry your guns, muzzle up or bagged and thats as far as it needs to go, watch your muzzle and never ever sweep someone with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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