Live fire training

[AussieTactical]

I have seen a lot of discussion about the importance of dry fire training. But I rarely see much discussion about live fire training. Assuming I have a solid dry fire schedule, how often should I be tying to live fire, and how many rounds per session should I be trying to achieve? Whats a good ball park objective while I am trying to build skills more so than maintaining skills?

[StuckinMS]

I believe it varies with the shooter.  The pros shoot an average of 1,000 rounds per day and increase significantly before an area, or national match.  But they have endless ammo.  Pick a couple of drills that address the skill you want to improve on for each practice session and remember: if you are having a bad shooting day, don't quit the practice, you could end up creating a bad habit.  If you are having a " John Wayne" day then practice as long as you can.  I would start conservative and work your way up and keep a log so that the next time you run the same drills you can chart progress.  Each consecutive session should focus on a different skill to keep you from getting bored

[Hi-Power Jack]

I took a course with a Pro who said he shoots about 5 - 7,000 rounds/year live fire in practice.

 

Mostly dry fire.

 

Live fire to confirm that you can hit targets at the same speed you're dry firing.

 

Depends on your budget, too.

 

10,000 rounds will cost you at least $1,000

 

I shot 800 rounds one day during a course, and my hand was bleeding at

the end of the day.   Moderation ....    

[perttime]

One way to look it is: how much time and money are you willing to dedicate to shooting?

Dry firing is easy, cheap and quick. Live fire costs money (ammunition, fuel, wear and tear) and time (travel to range, set up, patching or resetting targets, cleaning the gun, ...).

 

I generally manage to go to the range once a week - and rarely shoot more than 100 rounds. Figures might be very different for others.

[MemphisMechanic]

8 hours ago, StuckinMS said:

I believe it varies with the shooter.  The pros shoot an average of 1,000 rounds per day and increase significantly before an area, or national match.  But they have endless ammo.

 

I have actually not met a top level shooter yet who admit to shooting anywhere near 100k rounds a year, let alone 365,0000...

 

I think your estimate is high by a factor of 5 - 10.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[StuckinMS]

11 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

I have actually not met a top level shooter yet who admit to shooting anywhere near 100k rounds a year, let alone 365,0000...

 

I think your estimate is high by a factor of 5 - 10.

 

Yes you have if you have been shooting at MSSA long enough to have met Jesse Duff.  All of the present and former AMU guys and gals do also.  That list is quite extensive.   But they have ammunition sponsors and big expectations to live up to.  And I am sure some weekend and holidays they take off.  BJ Norris shot 20,000 rounds in just 2 weeks getting ready for the steel challenge world shoot!  

[motosapiens]

back to reality here. obviously no one is really going to shoot 1000 rds/day, or even 1000 rds/week, so those suggestions won't help the OP.

 

In my experience the newer you are, the more important live fire is, interspersed with frequent dryfire. I would recommend shooting every week if you can, anywhere from 100-300 rds. I would also recommend trying to make every round count. try to learn something from every trigger pull. Also at first I would be very very careful about dryfire exercises that involve pulling the trigger. it is very easy to develop bad habits when you haven't shot enough live fire to really learn how to grip the gun and track the sights during recoil. with that in mind, my dryfire would be focused on gun-handling without trigger pulls, things like drawing to a sight picture, reloading to a sight picture, transitions across a wide array of different targets, movement and reloads in all directions (with conscious effort on muzzle awareness and finger out of trigger guard) and so forth. And then in live fire I would focus mostly on accuracy (25% or so), bill drills at various distances (7, 10, 15, 20, 25y) and really focusing on getting all alphas, not just seeing how fast you can hang shots on paper. I would also do a few sessions where you *do* try to shoot faster and just hang shots on paper, to get used to shooting fast, and seeing what the sights are doing at that speed.

 

and dry-fire 15-20 minutes every day.

[AussieTactical]

28 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

back to reality here. obviously no one is really going to shoot 1000 rds/day, or even 1000 rds/week, so those suggestions won't help the OP.

 

In my experience the newer you are, the more important live fire is, interspersed with frequent dryfire. I would recommend shooting every week if you can, anywhere from 100-300 rds. I would also recommend trying to make every round count. try to learn something from every trigger pull. Also at first I would be very very careful about dryfire exercises that involve pulling the trigger. it is very easy to develop bad habits when you haven't shot enough live fire to really learn how to grip the gun and track the sights during recoil. with that in mind, my dryfire would be focused on gun-handling without trigger pulls, things like drawing to a sight picture, reloading to a sight picture, transitions across a wide array of different targets, movement and reloads in all directions (with conscious effort on muzzle awareness and finger out of trigger guard) and so forth. And then in live fire I would focus mostly on accuracy (25% or so), bill drills at various distances (7, 10, 15, 20, 25y) and really focusing on getting all alphas, not just seeing how fast you can hang shots on paper. I would also do a few sessions where you *do* try to shoot faster and just hang shots on paper, to get used to shooting fast, and seeing what the sights are doing at that speed.

 

and dry-fire 15-20 minutes every day.

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I dont think I am ready to adopt a pro shooters regimen yet. Maybe next year . This ^^^^ seems more in line with what I was thinking. 

[perttime]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

... Also at first I would be very very careful about dryfire exercises that involve pulling the trigger. it is very easy to develop bad habits when you haven't shot enough live fire to really learn how to grip the gun and track the sights during recoil. with that in mind, my dryfire would be focused on gun-handling without trigger pulls, things like drawing to a sight picture, reloading to a sight picture, transitions across a wide array of different targets, movement and reloads in all directions (with conscious effort on muzzle awareness and finger out of trigger guard) and so forth....

 

I'm curious: why without trigger pulls?

I've always thought that drawing to trigger pull would be useful, as long as you can keep staring at the front sight to ensure the sight picture remains good. Too many things to pay attention to, for an absolute beginner?

[Hammer002]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

back to reality here. obviously no one is really going to shoot 1000 rds/day, or even 1000 rds/week, so those suggestions won't help the OP.

 

In my experience the newer you are, the more important live fire is, interspersed with frequent dryfire. I would recommend shooting every week if you can, anywhere from 100-300 rds. I would also recommend trying to make every round count. try to learn something from every trigger pull. Also at first I would be very very careful about dryfire exercises that involve pulling the trigger. it is very easy to develop bad habits when you haven't shot enough live fire to really learn how to grip the gun and track the sights during recoil. with that in mind, my dryfire would be focused on gun-handling without trigger pulls, things like drawing to a sight picture, reloading to a sight picture, transitions across a wide array of different targets, movement and reloads in all directions (with conscious effort on muzzle awareness and finger out of trigger guard) and so forth. And then in live fire I would focus mostly on accuracy (25% or so), bill drills at various distances (7, 10, 15, 20, 25y) and really focusing on getting all alphas, not just seeing how fast you can hang shots on paper. I would also do a few sessions where you *do* try to shoot faster and just hang shots on paper, to get used to shooting fast, and seeing what the sights are doing at that speed.

 

and dry-fire 15-20 minutes every day.

 

This.  Absolutely this.  If in doubt, read this again.  I would just add if you aren't finding local competitions to keep the live fire going and your live fire is practice, focus on very specific skills as mentioned above.  Not stages or doing multiple things.  Also agree on the lack of trigger pull in dry fire to avoid live fire troubles.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hammer002

[StuckinMS]

With very concentrated effort your eyes and brain are very capable of seeing the slide move and shell extract and eject and return to battery.  Watch Travis Tomasie's you tube video about shot calling.  There are some extremely good videos put on you tube by the very elite of the sport showing various drills.  Bill drills are great but you need to also incorporate some movement drills.  Max Michele and Bob Vogel have some drills that work on moving from position to position and also shooting while on the move videos on there as well.  Treat it like a classroom: watch,take notes, set it up, do your walk through, shoot it slow, then pick up the pace until you find your pace that you can shoot it safe and accurately.  That is why in the above I said to pick a couple of drills for each practice session.   There are way more techniques  than can be addressed in one practice.   Keep a log and you can chart your progress, which will encourage you to keep it up.  Best wishes and keep it safe

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, perttime said:

 

I'm curious: why without trigger pulls?

I've always thought that drawing to trigger pull would be useful, as long as you can keep staring at the front sight to ensure the sight picture remains good. Too many things to pay attention to, for an absolute beginner?

 

drawing to a trigger pull *is* useful, but I would recommend doing it *without* the timer to start with. It is pretty easy to develop bad habits trying to beat the timer. I think it can be valuable to do a mix of timed draw to sight picture, untimed draw to very accurate shot (like a 2" circle at 6-7 yards), and one of ben stoeger's exercises with *only* a trigger pull, as follows.

 

Put the gun on target, at the beep try to complete the trigger pull before the beep finishes, while minimizing or eliminating movement of the sights. Especially useful for DA shooters. I set the timer for 4-5 second par time so I can do reps for each button push (after the first one, recock the gun if SA or striker and wait for the end beep and do another pull. I do 4 reps weak hand, then 4 reps strong hand then 4 reps freestyle, then repeat 2-3 times.

 

I think one of the fundamental things to learn at the beginning is that your eyes need to stay on the target/sights until *the gun fires*. It's very easy for your brain to send the signal to start pulling the trigger, and then tune out and move to the next target before the gun fires. This generally doesn't work well and leads to frustrated statements like 'the sights were there when I pulled the trigger'. Yeah, well maybe when you *started* pulling the trigger, but they were somewhere else when the gun went off. many folks refer to this as 'follow-through', staying with the sights until the gun fires. Trying to beat the par timer in dry-fire training without careful attention to what you are doing is an easy way to teach yourself *not* to follow through. I certainly struggled with this in the past because I enjoy dryfire alot, but I was doing too much of it, not carefully enough, and not enough live-fire to calibrate what I was seeing.

[Part_time_redneck]

Aussie. I'm sure there are a lot of people who have better ideas but this is just what I do on the occasion I get to live fire practice which is usually once or twice a week at best. During live fire practice I have 3 primary goals. 

 

- refine current skills and fundamentals

- implement new / lacking skills

- match preparation. 

 

I break down live fire practice into 3 different intervals covering these aspects in that order. 

 

First I just work on 2 or 3 drills. Generally about 3 repetitions of each drill. Like StuckinMS said keep a log. Not only will this help uncover your flaws but helps to give you a sense of accomplishment and boost confidence. I do change up drills from one practice session to the next. 

 

After a quick break I work on specific things that are holding me back now. I think back on my latest matches and things that gave me the most trouble. Right now hard weak hand side leans and shooting while ( trying to ) move fast. I'm too round to do anything fast. 

 

Finally after another break ( I'm all about the breaks ) I work on match prep. I will set up a very small mock stage. Usually just 3-5 targets with movement. No-shoots, reload, hard leans, no limit to what you can do with only a handful of targets. If you have a friend that can run you as an RO even better. The goal is to simulate match conditions as closely as possible. After running it once, I will change up the stage. I start to a timer beep and glance at the times and splits but that's it. I'm just trying to develop a stage plan and then execute it safely, correctly and efficiently. 

 

I use about half my time for the first 2 and the other half for the last. Average @ 50 rounds for each section. Start to finish is about 90 minutes. Time spent / # rounds fired is irrelevant to me, just trying to learn something from every shot fired. For me it's more about quality than quantity. 

 

Like I said, there is a lot better advice in here than what I can give. This is just what has helped me. Remember to have fun and be safe. 

 

[StuckinMS]

9 hours ago, Part_time_redneck said:

Aussie. I'm sure there are a lot of people who have better ideas but this is just what I do on the occasion I get to live fire practice which is usually once or twice a week at best. During live fire practice I have 3 primary goals. 

 

- refine current skills and fundamentals

- implement new / lacking skills

- match preparation. 

 

I break down live fire practice into 3 different intervals covering these aspects in that order. 

 

First I just work on 2 or 3 drills. Generally about 3 repetitions of each drill. Like StuckinMS said keep a log. Not only will this help uncover your flaws but helps to give you a sense of accomplishment and boost confidence. I do change up drills from one practice session to the next. 

 

After a quick break I work on specific things that are holding me back now. I think back on my latest matches and things that gave me the most trouble. Right now hard weak hand side leans and shooting while ( trying to ) move fast. I'm too round to do anything fast. 

 

Finally after another break ( I'm all about the breaks ) I work on match prep. I will set up a very small mock stage. Usually just 3-5 targets with movement. No-shoots, reload, hard leans, no limit to what you can do with only a handful of targets. If you have a friend that can run you as an RO even better. The goal is to simulate match conditions as closely as possible. After running it once, I will change up the stage. I start to a timer beep and glance at the times and splits but that's it. I'm just trying to develop a stage plan and then execute it safely, correctly and efficiently. 

 

I use about half my time for the first 2 and the other half for the last. Average @ 50 rounds for each section. Start to finish is about 90 minutes. Time spent / # rounds fired is irrelevant to me, just trying to learn something from every shot fired. For me it's more about quality than quantity. 

 

Like I said, there is a lot better advice in here than what I can give. This is just what has helped me. Remember to have fun and be safe. 

 

A great example of a good practice!   Rob Leatham is a unique coach and also a very accomplished shooter.  To get rid of uncontrolled trigger jerks(Rob often admits that he jerks his trigger to shoot fast, but it is a very controlled jerk) place an empty she'll case on top of your slide just behind the front sight and pull the trigger without moving the case, then add a timer and start with your finger outside of the trigger guard with a par time of say .5 and try to pull the trigger within the par time and not moving the case.  Most important is to always practice safety, don't get lax with the muzzle just because you are "the only one on the range".  Second remember and take notes that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for you.  I have seen several different draw techniques and they work for the people using them but they are different.   Study and find what works best for you.  The more "natural" it feels the easier it is to replicate.  Just being humble enough to ask like you have, sounds like you are very well on your way to becoming a better shooter.  It all starts there. 

[BRJACKET]

This makes me realize how much I am lagging behind on my dry firing.