Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Nzshooter1 said:

 So by Jeffs logic that means that minor is flawed and has too great an advantage over major right?

 

I think you need to concede the point that major has a significant advantage. The data is overwhelming. 

[teros135]

On 5/22/2017 at 3:38 PM, waktasz said:

Absolutely not ever.

Not one person in the top 60 shooting minor at nats.

 

Using actual USPSA score data from 2016 Limited Nats (October 2016), there were 26 listed shooting minor out of 294 entries (8.84%).  The highest of them was 63rd (70% score), then 83rd, then 128th and downward.  The 2016 Limited Nats equipment survey had 90% shooting 40sw, 9% 9mm, and 1% 45 ACP.   63% shot 180 gr bullets and another 15% shot 200gr. 

 

Can't really see how Major is falling out of favor in the sport, overall.  It'll be interesting to see if there are any "major" changes this year (Iron Sight Nats, in September). 

[SWprotected]

Easy fix, let 9mm make major in limited. Major has an advantage in scoring, really this is ground breaking news.

[teros135]

1 minute ago, SWprotected said:

Easy fix, let 9mm make major in limited. Major has an advantage in scoring, really this is ground breaking news.

 

What problem will that solve?  

 

Again, there are plenty of places to shoot 9mm in USPSA (Prod, SS, CO, Revo, and even Lim, Lim10, & Open, if so inclined).

[waktasz]

30 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

What problem will that solve?  

 

Again, there are plenty of places to shoot 9mm in USPSA (Prod, SS, CO, Revo, and even Lim, Lim10, & Open, if so inclined).

 

When all of the major ammo component manufactures suddenly abandon the 40S&W round, those 9mm dudes will be ahead of the curve and I'll just be in my garage crying over my useless Dillon

[SWprotected]

19 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

What problem will that solve?  

 

Again, there are plenty of places to shoot 9mm in USPSA (Prod, SS, CO, Revo, and even Lim, Lim10, & Open, if so inclined).

I don't disagree I think limited is fine the way it is. It does eliminate the scoring disadvantage for 9mm since so many seem to have an issue with it. I personally don't want to shoot 9 major but hey if someone else does go for it. I have 40s for limited, I figured out when I decided to shoot the division what was best for being competitive and built guns accordingly.

[bret]

3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

When all of the major ammo component manufactures suddenly abandon the 40S&W round, those 9mm dudes will be ahead of the curve and I'll just be in my garage crying over my useless Dillon

I will give you fifty bucks for your useless Dillon.

[waktasz]

Then we will have to make a 9 page thread crying about how 9major gets a capacity advantage and how all the existing 40 cal limited guns are useless

 

[N3WWN]

DVC = Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

 

"Accuracy, Power, and Speed"

 

You get a scoring penalty for shooting less powerful ammunition (or a scoring bonus for shooting more powerful ammunition, however you want to look at it).

 

Keep a few things in mind:  

• 9mm factory ammo, including +P and self-defense ammo, usually will not make major in most 5" guns.  
• 40 S&W, 357 Sig and 45 ACP all make major with standard factory ammo (not necessarily low-recoil varieties) in most 5" guns, IIRC.  

This means that only folks who spend the extra money for the rare "factory" 9 Major ammo or load their own ammo will be able to actually make power factor.  Would you then argue that the power floor should be decreased so that factory 9 ammo makes major in most guns? 

 

Shooting 9mm Major is exceeding what most guns were designed for because 9mm Major loads can exceed 45k PSI (10k PSI over the SAAMI max pressure for 9mm and 6.5k PSI over the SAAMI max pressure for 9mm +P).  Probably not a good idea unless you have a purpose built 9 Major gun.

 

Shooting 40 S&W, 357 Sig or 45 ACP ammo that makes major in most guns is exactly what the guns were designed for, is easier on the gun and safer for the shooter because of the maximum 35k PSI, 40k PSI and 21k PSI for those cartridges, respectively.  

 

Based on Hodgdon load data, my 171 PF 40 S&W major load is only about 29k PSI, well below the 35k max PSI.

 

Even if 9mm was permitted to make major in Limited, I'd still shoot 40.

[bret]

Just now, waktasz said:

Then we will have to make a 9 page thread crying about how 9major gets a capacity advantage and how all the existing 40 cal limited guns are useless

 

It isn't people shooting major crying,  it is guys shooting minor.

 

If you want to shoot 9mm major, have at it.

 

9mm major in an uncompensated gun will not be fun to shoot,  if it really makes major, so a couple of extra rounds won't be a problem. 

[Jeff226]

9 minutes ago, N3WWN said:

DVC = Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

 

"Accuracy, Power, and Speed"

 

You get a scoring penalty for shooting less powerful ammunition (or a scoring bonus for shooting more powerful ammunition, however you want to look at it).

 

Keep a few things in mind:  

• 9mm factory ammo, including +P and self-defense ammo, usually will not make major in most 5" guns.  
• 40 S&W, 357 Sig and 45 ACP all make major with standard factory ammo (not necessarily low-recoil varieties) in most 5" guns, IIRC.  

This means that only folks who spend the extra money for the rare "factory" 9 Major ammo or load their own ammo will be able to actually make power factor.  Would you then argue that the power floor should be decreased so that factory 9 ammo makes major in most guns? 

 

Shooting 9mm Major is exceeding what most guns were designed for because 9mm Major loads can exceed 45k PSI (10k PSI over the SAAMI max pressure for 9mm and 6.5k PSI over the SAAMI max pressure for 9mm +P).  Probably not a good idea unless you have a purpose built 9 Major gun.

 

Shooting 40 S&W, 357 Sig or 45 ACP ammo that makes major in most guns is exactly what the guns were designed for, is easier on the gun and safer for the shooter because of the maximum 35k PSI, 40k PSI and 21k PSI for those cartridges, respectively.  

 

Based on Hodgdon load data, my 171 PF 40 S&W major load is only about 29k PSI, well below the 35k max PSI.

 

Even if 9mm was permitted to make major in Limited, I'd still shoot 40.

 

Great points.  Which is why I suggest that Limited minor be separate from Limited major.  Then both major and minor can shoot modded guns with full capacity magazines without one being scored at an obvious disadvantage or have to use questionable reloads to make major.

 

Not sure why people so strongly opposed a new/competitive division for high capacity modded 9mms...the largest handgun market by far at the moment, when we have all of these redundant limited magazine divisions, and PCC, carry optics which have been pointed out to be low participation many times over on this forum.  

[teros135]

Again, what problem is this supposed to fix ... in one of the most popular Divisions?

[bret]

2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Great points.  Which is why I suggest that Limited minor be separate from Limited major.  Then both major and minor can shoot modded guns with full capacity magazines without one being scored at an obvious disadvantage or have to use questionable reloads to make major.

 

Not sure why people so strongly opposed a new/competitive division for high capacity modded 9mms...the largest handgun market by far at the moment, when we have all of these redundant limited magazine divisions, and PCC, carry optics which have been pointed out to be low participation many times over on this forum.  

9mm in limited is not the largest market, the .40 S&W is, look at how many people shoot .40 in Limited.

 

More people shoot Major in Limited, L10, and Single Stack than Minor.

 

If you want to shoot your 9mm in limited you can, you need to be more accurate which is easier with less recoil.

[waktasz]

7 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Great points.  Which is why I suggest that Limited minor be separate from Limited major.  Then both major and minor can shoot modded guns with full capacity magazines without one being scored at an obvious disadvantage or have to use questionable reloads to make major.

 

Not sure why people so strongly opposed a new/competitive division for high capacity modded 9mms...the largest handgun market by far at the moment, when we have all of these redundant limited magazine divisions, and PCC, carry optics which have been pointed out to be low participation many times over on this forum.  

 

How about keep the division whole, and give a participation ribbon to the top Limited Minor shooter ?

[N3WWN]

5 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Great points.  Which is why I suggest that Limited minor be separate from Limited major.  Then both major and minor can shoot modded guns with full capacity magazines without one being scored at an obvious disadvantage or have to use questionable reloads to make major.

 

Not sure why people so strongly opposed a new/competitive division for high capacity modded 9mms...the largest handgun market by far at the moment, when we have all of these redundant limited magazine divisions, and PCC, carry optics which have been pointed out to be low participation many times over on this forum.  

 

This goes back to snowflake divisions and watering down the sport.  

 

If you have a Compact M&P 9mm with a 3.5" barrel to shoot in Production and it can't make minor with the 9mm factory ammo that you bought, do you want to create a sub-minor Production division?

 

Summary (and reiteration):  To be competitive in any division, buy competitive equipment for said division... and learn how to shoot it.  

 

If you're just at the match to shoot a gun you already have in your safe, then do that, too, and have fun in the division that the gun fits into (which may be Open, BTW), but realize it may not be competitive.

 

Some of these "high capacity modded 9mms" don't have an optic, but do have ported barrels, which places you squarely in Open.  Would you like us to create a new Open-NO division for this sub-category that doesn't fit into your proposed Limited minor division?

[Jeff226]

Just now, bret said:

9mm in limited is not the largest market, the .40 S&W is, look at how many people shoot .40 in Limited.

 

More people shoot Major in Limited, L10, and Single Stack than Minor.

 

If you want to shoot your 9mm in limited you can, you need to be more accurate which is easier with less recoil.

 

Market = handguns sold overall (not what people bring to USPSA)...there are many times more full capacity 9mms being sold in the market than 40s.  That gap is increasing and will continue to do so.

 

Yes, there are currently more 40s shot in limited than 9mms at the higher level matches because of the scoring advantage.

 

Most people realize you can't make up the scoring disadvantage with speed

 

 

[bret]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

How about keep the division whole, and give a participation ribbon to the top Limited Minor shooter ?

I think all the Limited Minor shooters should get a participation ribbon.

[teros135]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

How about keep the division whole, and give a participation ribbon to the top Limited Minor shooter ?

Heck, just give them the fabled Winnebago, to make them feel good 

[GorillaTactical]

4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Most people realize you can't make up the scoring disadvantage with speed

 

 

 

Correct...you need to do it with accuracy.

[bret]

Just now, Jeff226 said:

 

Market = handguns sold overall (not what people bring to USPSA)...there are many times more full capacity 9mms being sold in the market than 40s.  That gap is increasing and will continue to do so.

 

Yes, there are currently more 40s shot in limited than 9mms at the higher level matches because of the scoring advantage.

 

Most people realize you can't make up the scoring disadvantage with speed

 

 

The .22 is the most popular gun sold, should we allow them in USPSA matches?

 

It really doesn't matter what the most popular gun being sold is, Limited in USPSA is dominated by people shooting 2011's in Major.

 

If you want a snowflake division lobby the Beard and the BOD.

[Jeff226]

1 minute ago, N3WWN said:

 

This goes back to snowflake divisions and watering down the sport.

Those are fool's arguments.

 

I don't understand how people shooting watered down 40 think they are superior in some manner.  Your position might more sense if we still had 175 pf.

 

 

[waktasz]

It's not about being superior, it's about changing an entire division so these theoretical 9mm 2011 shooters have a place to shoot their guns.

[bret]

1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

Those are fool's arguments.

 

I don't understand how people shooting watered down 40 think they are superior in some manner.  Your position might more sense if we still had 175 pf.

 

 

What are you shooting? 

 

At IPSC my .40 chrono'd 185 PF, at Optics Nationals my Open gun Chrono'd 186.9 PF.

 

There is quite a bit of difference shooting 165 PF, and 125 PF. 

 

When I shoot minor it seems slow and sluggish, not much recoil.

 

 

[N3WWN]

Just now, Jeff226 said:

I don't understand how people shooting watered down 40 think they are superior in some manner.  Your position might more sense if we still had 175 pf.

 

 

 

It's not that "we" think we're superior, it's that we know the rules and the rules specify a minimum power factor for shooting major.  You can play within the rules and be competitive (or not) without changing the rules.  

Maybe you need to start your own shooting sport where every competitor is in their own division, one that is perfectly tailored to their equipment and skill level, so that nobody has an "unfair advantage" over anyone else by playing within the rules.

 

BTW, 175 PF wouldn't favor your 9mm, either...

[IDescribe]

I think there's a fairly obvious solution:

Expand the divisions to include separate major and minor divisions of Prod-10, Production, Prod-Optic, Lim-10, Limited, Limited Optic, Mostly Open-10, Open, Revo, Revo-Optic, Single Stack, Really Expensive Single Stack, PCC-10, PCC, PCC-Open, and PCC-Heavy Metal, and then everyone would be happy... except that largely untapped demographic of .22 owners without whom the USPSA Limited division is really suffering.