Compare limited and open speed

[Gooldylocks]

no shit. What is it about focusing on the dot that you think gives you better hits?

Haha having the crisper dot (because I'm focused on it) makes it easier for me to focus on the target, in a weird way. I don't have any double vision issues with the dot if I'm looking at the dot.

And to clarify, when I'm talking hard/tight shots I'm talking like 20+ yard partials. We had a zebra at 30-35 a couple months ago.

[Jake Di Vita]

Just now, Gooldylocks said:

Haha having the crisper dot (because I'm focused on it) makes it easier for me to focus on the target, in a weird way. I don't have any double vision issues with the dot if I'm looking at the dot.

And to clarify, when I'm talking hard/tight shots I'm talking like 20+ yard partials. We had a zebra at 30-35 a couple months ago.

Fair enough. What size dot are you using?

[Gooldylocks]

Fair enough. What size dot are you using?

6, in an RTS2 (i mention that part because I think the dots appear a bit smaller than the same size of sliderides)

[Jake Di Vita]

6 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

6, in an RTS2 (i mention that part because I think the dots appear a bit smaller than the same size of sliderides)

Ok, I started with shooting an 8 and had a similar experience as you with real tough shots, but that went away when I went to a smaller dot (I'm also using a 6 now but I'm thinkin about going back down to 4). If that's what's workin for you, by all means keep doing it. You may find you don't need to do it as much in the future. I think generally speaking the fewer times you have to focus on things in a stage the better.

[zzt]

FWIW, bullseye shooters are trained to look at the dot.  I think it comes from the front sight focus of irons.  When I transitioned from iron to dot, that is what I was told by the very best bullseye shooters.

Action shooting and bullseye shooting require two entirely different techniques, and not just sight focus.  When I first started shooting plates and pin matches, I looked at the dot.  It was slower.  When I eventually learned to relax and let my subconscious take over, I started winning.  The feeling is surreal.  It is as though you are an observer in your own body.  I should have realized this straight off, because that is exactly how worked when I shot Trap.

I'll add that I still occasionally shoot bullseye and focusing on the target rather than the dot seems to make no difference in my scores.

[a matt]

K.I.S.S.

Open= TOP FUEL

Limited= FUNNY CARS

NHRA-both have same motors 

Uspsa-both shoot major

sometimes Limited shooters are faster and so are the Funny Cars.

With all things equal driver/shooter Top Fuel is quicker/Faster and Open is quicker/faster.  

 

[ShortBus]

6 hours ago, a matt said:

K.I.S.S.

Open= TOP FUEL

Limited= FUNNY CARS

NHRA-both have same motors 

Uspsa-both shoot major

sometimes Limited shooters are faster and so are the Funny Cars.

With all things equal driver/shooter Top Fuel is quicker/Faster and Open is quicker/faster.  

 

Squid kaboom = tire shake?

[theWacoKid]

Unload and Show Clear = parachutes?

[ShortBus]

1 hour ago, theWacoKid said:

Unload and Show Clear = parachutes?

If you ULSC fast enough do you need 2 chutes?

[theWacoKid]

Just now, ShortBus said:

If you ULSC fast enough do you need 2 chutes?

Yes!

[MikieM]

On 10/30/2016 at 5:24 PM, igolfat8 said:

Posing a theoretical question, if you shot two pistols, say at similar distances and targets... you have two 9mm pistols, one was a limited and the other an open gun, which one would be faster racing against the clock? Both are loaded to the same velocity and PF. In my mind I would guess the open gun would be faster since the muzzle would remain flatter and settle back on target faster. Have any of you made similar comparisons?

If you only fired one shot then the time would be the same for both guns.

If there were multiple shots taken then the open gun would presumably be faster because of faster target acquisition. At least for mere mortals such as myself.  

[MikieM]

On 11/28/2016 at 7:33 AM, a matt said:

K.I.S.S.

Open= TOP FUEL

Limited= FUNNY CARS

NHRA-both have same motors 

Uspsa-both shoot major

sometimes Limited shooters are faster and so are the Funny Cars.

With all things equal driver/shooter Top Fuel is quicker/Faster and Open is quicker/faster.  

 

A good analogy. I used a similar one in a thread about shooting minor pf in Open division.

By-the-way, the Top Fuel car will almost always beat the Funny car because it's lighter. 

[Shadyscott999]

On 11/21/2016 at 9:01 AM, zzt said:

I shot both, but with different platforms.  Limited is definitely faster on close targets that are mostly hidden behind a no-shoot.  The dot is 2" above the bore on my Open gun, and you definitely have to take that into account on close targets.  Also, when you are racing past close targets, the dot is a distraction.  On such targets I definitely liked my Limited gun better.

Splits on both guns are pretty close to the same.  At targets 25 yards away and farther, the dot really helps.  I can shoot two alphas much more quickly with the dot.

Most of the stages at the clubs I shoot at are set up to make absolutely sure you cannot pick two positions and spray the entire stage.  You have to cover the same ground as everyone else, so there is no distinct advantage of one over the other.  

Wuuuuut?  So you are saying your splits on a 15 yd target with a limited gun are the same as with an Open gun?  

[Shadyscott999]

Only in rare circumstances ( stages) is an iron sight gun is as fast as an open gun.  It is very simple that target focus is naturally faster than sight focus.  You can index an open gun the same as a limited gun on close targets.  
What you are seeing I think is some stages simply limit the advantages of Open.  I have shot hoser matches and said, " I could have done just as well with my Limited gun"  I have never said, "I would have done better with my limited gun" .  
 

[rishii]

An open gun will generally be faster and more accurate than a limited gun, but on some close hoser target arrays a limited gun does not have as big as a disadvantage against a open gun

 

[Gooldylocks]

If you only fired one shot then the time would be the same for both guns.

If there were multiple shots taken then the open gun would presumably be faster because of faster target acquisition. At least for mere mortals such as myself.  

No, open would be fast even with just one shot.. Your draw and transitions should be faster with the open gun, assuming they are more than just hoser distance. If they are inside of 10-12 yards then sure they could be the same. Beyond that....

[MikieM]

4 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

No, open would be fast even with just one shot.. Your draw and transitions should be faster with the open gun, assuming they are more than just hoser distance. If they are inside of 10-12 yards then sure they could be the same. Beyond that....

Why would the draw be faster (draw wasn't one of the parameters, anyway)? The holster is the same for both guns. 

[MikieM]

4 hours ago, rishii said:

An open gun will generally be faster and more accurate than a limited gun, but on some close hoser target arrays a limited gun does not have as big as a disadvantage against a open gun

 

An open gun will not necessarily be more accurate, just because it is a gun used in open division.

STI, for example, uses the same barrel in both their Limited and Open pistols. The only difference is the comp. 

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, MikieM said:

Why would the draw be faster (draw wasn't one of the parameters, anyway)? The holster is the same for both guns. 

Sight acquisition is faster in Open.  You're loking at the target and superimposing the dot on it; your brain just does that faster than aligning sights + target.  

[MikieM]

10 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Sight acquisition is faster in Open.  You're loking at the target and superimposing the dot on it; your brain just does that faster than aligning sights + target.  

The OP's question did not mention a draw. He only asked if one gun was faster than the other. He probably should have been more clear.

You are actually proposing another question. Is the first shot part of the draw?

[igolfat8]

Draw wasn't a factor (for me). The games we play start from a low ready position.

[Gooldylocks]

Uhh, no it isn't a question? Draw speed has, and always will, include the first shot. 

7 minutes ago, igolfat8 said:

Draw wasn't a factor (for me). The games we play start from a low ready position.

Isn't this entire thread in reference to Limited vs Open, in USPSA/IPSC? It could be applied to any other sport with the same guns, but this conversation specifically is talking about USPSA, which always starts from a draw.

[a matt]

On December 4, 2016 at 5:00 PM, MikieM said:

An open gun will not necessarily be more accurate, just because it is a gun used in open division.

STI, for example, uses the same barrel in both their Limited and Open pistols. The only difference is the comp. 

Im wondering how the barrels are the same, with open being the Trubor (comp & barrel made from one billet) in .355 and the limited is .40 S&W even if you shoot 9mm .355 minor those two barrels are completely different one has comp on its end. Unless STI is into wasting the time and materials to make ever barrel with a Trubor comp on ever barrel just to cut the excess off? Just my thought...

[MikieM]

5 hours ago, a matt said:

Im wondering how the barrels are the same, with open being the Trubor (comp & barrel made from one billet) in .355 and the limited is .40 S&W even if you shoot 9mm .355 minor those two barrels are completely different one has comp on its end. Unless STI is into wasting the time and materials to make ever barrel with a Trubor comp on ever barrel just to cut the excess off? Just my thought...

The barrels have the same the same dimensions. Five inch length. .355 inch bore. I in 16 twist. 

[teros135]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 5:14 PM, MikieM said:

The OP's question did not mention a draw. He only asked if one gun was faster than the other. He probably should have been more clear.

You are actually proposing another question. Is the first shot part of the draw?

No, I didn't say anything about the draw, nor intend to infer anything.  

I see the dot as being faster to put on target, in any sort of transition (between shots, between targets, etc.), because you're not aligning three things and the dot is small and discrete.  Open shooters demonstrate this all the time. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by teros135