Compare limited and open speed

[Hunter1998]

With open gun you only have one reference to line up and with limited you have to line up front and rear sight. In most cases someone would be faster with an open pistol. Especially new shooters, line up the dot and pull trigger. Not sure of if either gun is faster if someone would shoot both just pulling the trigger as fast as they can on one target.

[zzt]

I shot both, but with different platforms.  Limited is definitely faster on close targets that are mostly hidden behind a no-shoot.  The dot is 2" above the bore on my Open gun, and you definitely have to take that into account on close targets.  Also, when you are racing past close targets, the dot is a distraction.  On such targets I definitely liked my Limited gun better.

Splits on both guns are pretty close to the same.  At targets 25 yards away and farther, the dot really helps.  I can shoot two alphas much more quickly with the dot.

Most of the stages at the clubs I shoot at are set up to make absolutely sure you cannot pick two positions and spray the entire stage.  You have to cover the same ground as everyone else, so there is no distinct advantage of one over the other.  

[Jake Di Vita]

35 minutes ago, zzt said:

I shot both, but with different platforms.  Limited is definitely faster on close targets that are mostly hidden behind a no-shoot.  The dot is 2" above the bore on my Open gun, and you definitely have to take that into account on close targets.  Also, when you are racing past close targets, the dot is a distraction.  On such targets I definitely liked my Limited gun better.

Man, I think you're crazy. There is no target I've ever seen at any match in 16 years of shooting that is slower to shoot with a dot than irons. I believe that you like your limited gun more on close targets but that preference has more to do with your personal abilities than anything else. The thought of a built in disadvantage of shooting a dot at close targets? Doesn't exist. The dot is a distraction on close targets? C'mon man. If anything that just means you can't ignore the dot as easily as you can ignore irons. Most people that say stuff like this haven't put very much work into the dot.

[teros135]

On Tuesday, November 01, 2016 at 6:35 PM, abb1 said:

In theory, open is faster, but you may change your mind when you see Robin Sebo shoot his Shadow 2 in competition. Most of us only dream we can shoot that fast with an open gun let alone a production gun. Like was posted, 'it is the indian, not the arrow'

Uh, no.  One guy shooting Production fast doesn't make all iron-sight guns faster, at all distances and/or at all targets. Because Taran Butler can clean a plate rack in 1.xx seconds from the hip doesn't mean that anyone else can do it.   Again, check out major match results on Practiscore.  

[teros135]

14 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

Man, I think you're crazy. There is no target I've ever seen at any match in 16 years of shooting that is slower to shoot with a dot than irons. I believe that you like your limited gun more on close targets but that preference has more to do with your personal abilities than anything else. The thought of a built in disadvantage of shooting a dot at close targets? Doesn't exist. The dot is a distraction on close targets? C'mon man. If anything that just means you can't ignore the dot as easily as you can ignore irons. Most people that say stuff like this haven't put very much work into the dot.

I think this may have to do with familiarity with the dot (i.e., Open) and with which dot you have.  I struggled with the "dot dance" (finding the dot) for about a year before switching to a RTS2, and now it's "right there".  Better alignment for me.

The dot does tell you very definitively about your index; if it's off, the dot isn't right there (it's not the dot, it's the grip/index). 

[zzt]

Crazy or not Jake, that's what I think.  Don't forget, I'm talking about  a frame mount, with thumb rest, and an upright Slideride.  All that superstructure gets in the way and is distracting.  The glowing FO on a Limited gun is cleaner and more precise for those targets.

BTW, all my pistols wear slide mount reflex sights, except my Limited and Open pistols.  I've been using them for years and have no problem ignoring the dot.  You look at the target, not the dot.

Edited November 21, 2016 by zzt

[Jake Di Vita]

You're free to think that. Just like people are free to think the Earth is flat if they want to. I however refuse to subscribe to such an idea because it simply doesn't make sense. None of the bells and whistles of an Open gun have ever been distracting to me in any way and I've never heard of another GM saying they were distracting.

47 minutes ago, zzt said:

The glowing FO on a Limited gun is cleaner and more precise for those targets.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because I view this sentence as completely and utterly ludicrous. You're saying aligning a notch and post is cleaner and more precise than putting a dot on the target and pulling the trigger. I don't understand how anyone can actually think this statement is true.

Once again, I get that you might feel this way because of your results but I think your results have more to do with your personal ability than any built in disadvantage inherent in dots.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[zzt]

Jake, action shooting is like shotgun shooting.  If your mount and stance are correct, you break the bird.  Same in action shooting.  If you are doing everything correctly, you don't have to "aim".  The sights are automatically/subconsciously aligned on what you are looking at.  If they are not, you have a problem elsewhere that you have to fix.  Regarding close targets that you shoot while blazing by on the run, you look over the slide of a Limited gun and shoot.  On my Open gun, you look through/around a bunch of stuff, and it isn't as clear.

[Gooldylocks]

8 minutes ago, zzt said:

Jake, action shooting is like shotgun shooting.  If your mount and stance are correct, you break the bird.  Same in action shooting.  If you are doing everything correctly, you don't have to "aim".  The sights are automatically/subconsciously aligned on what you are looking at.  If they are not, you have a problem elsewhere that you have to fix.  Regarding close targets that you shoot while blazing by on the run, you look over the slide of a Limited gun and shoot.  On my Open gun, you look through/around a bunch of stuff, and it isn't as clear.

hmmmmmmmmm..... seems... suspicious. 

[Gooldylocks]

2 hours ago, teros135 said:

I think this may have to do with familiarity with the dot (i.e., Open) and with which dot you have.  I struggled with the "dot dance" (finding the dot) for about a year before switching to a RTS2, and now it's "right there".  Better alignment for me.

The dot does tell you very definitively about your index; if it's off, the dot isn't right there (it's not the dot, it's the grip/index). 

That means you should dry fire more. Moving between different guns, different sights, different mounts... really it shouldn't take more than a single dry fire session to get it figured out. 

[Jake Di Vita]

17 minutes ago, zzt said:

Jake, action shooting is like shotgun shooting.  If your mount and stance are correct, you break the bird.  Same in action shooting.  If you are doing everything correctly, you don't have to "aim".  The sights are automatically/subconsciously aligned on what you are looking at.  If they are not, you have a problem elsewhere that you have to fix. 

 I completely agree with the premise of natural point of aim and index being a significant advantage. I also agree that if your NPA and index is off, you can and should improve that through dry fire. What you seem to be missing is what you're saying can quite easily be applied to a dot gun. If you can't apply this stuff to a dot gun then like you said, "you have a problem elsewhere that you have to fix." It sounds to me like you just have a higher skill level with irons than you have with a dot.

20 minutes ago, zzt said:

Regarding close targets that you shoot while blazing by on the run, you look over the slide of a Limited gun and shoot.  On my Open gun, you look through/around a bunch of stuff, and it isn't as clear.

Here's where you lost me. The lack of clarity you're talking about is in your head. In fact I'd content it's actually the exact opposite of what you're saying. There is more clarity with the dot gun as all the information you want is there for free. You don't have to work for it, all you have to do is put the dot in front of your face and you get precise feedback immediately every single time.

I've shot Open for 10+ years now at a decently high level and I've never once felt disadvantaged on a speed course compared to my iron sight shooting brethren.

[teros135]

37 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

hmmmmmmmmm..... seems... suspicious. 

No, it's true.  You don't have to aim.  Only unaccomplished shooters have to aim.

[teros135]

37 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

That means you should dry fire more. Moving between different guns, different sights, different mounts... really it shouldn't take more than a single dry fire session to get it figured out. 

Why does everybody think the way HE does it is the right way? (And has to lecture somebody else about what they're doing "wrong"?)

[Jake Di Vita]

9 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Why does everybody think the way HE does it is the right way? (And has to lecture somebody else about what they're doing "wrong"?)

Experience. Personal results. Watching other shooters have problems and noticing patterns. I wouldn't call anything that has been said here lecturing, we're having a discussion. Why do people get their feelings hurt when there are disagreements?

If you disagree with what Gooldy said, present your case. For the most part I think the statement by him that you quoted is accurate, except I'd add that the better shooter you are the easier you are able to switch between platforms (hence his recommendation for more practice).

Edited November 21, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Gooldylocks]

Why does everybody think the way HE does it is the right way? (And has to lecture somebody else about what they're doing "wrong"?)

You said that you continually struggled with "the dot dance" and it was only remedied through getting a different optic. I contend that the only reason that would happen is due to a lack of dry fire to change your index point.

Changing your NPA is extremely easy. Do some draws onto a white wall, until the sights are appearing in your vision aligned. Then put a target (or a light switch, or a door knob, or whatever) and draw to that until the sights are coming up aligned, and on target. Repeat as necessary.

[Crispin1025]

The big advantage with open is that you have think less. Shot to shot there are mechanical advantages with the compensator, red dot, etc. but when you consider stage breakdown, reloading, having to only concentrate on a dot instead of sights, etc. open begins to break away from limited functionally. 

[Jake Di Vita]

5 minutes ago, Crispin1025 said:

The big advantage with open is that you have think less. Shot to shot there are mechanical advantages with the compensator, red dot, etc. but when you consider stage breakdown, reloading, having to only concentrate on a dot instead of sights, etc. open begins to break away from limited functionally. 

Absolutely, and the bold is the big one. It's even simpler than that. You concentrate on the target and the dot just appears. Instant precise feedback without even needing to look for it.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[GJM]

If you study the results of Area matches, you will see on average, the Open winner gets 100 percent, the Limited winner gets 90 percent, and the Production winner comes in at 75 percent. That is assuming representation with the best in each category. 

[abb1]

On 2016-11-21 at 0:22 PM, teros135 said:

No, it's true.  You don't have to aim.  Only unaccomplished shooters have to aim.

OMG, I am not too sure of the intent of this post, whether too knock someone down, but you are so wrong. Even the most accomplished shooters aim. Lol, If you shoot a plate at 20 yds without aiming, you will be there for a while. 

[zzt]

abb1, that post was directed at me.  In the context of another post I said " If you are doing everything correctly, you don't have to "aim".  The post was referring to the difference between conscious aiming and subconscious aiming, a nuance that escaped Gooldy.

[Gooldylocks]

abb1, that post was directed at me.  In the context of another post I said " If you are doing everything correctly, you don't have to "aim".  The post was referring to the difference between conscious aiming and subconscious aiming, a nuance that escaped Gooldy.

Ah, you are gonna try and say I don'x vt know about the difference between conscious aiming and subconscious aiming? It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pans out for you.

Keep in mind you are the same guy that is currently arguing that open is slower on hoser targets because there are too many distractions in your field of view, which kinda proves your theory of subconsciously aiming because the sights are just magically always aligned and you should just point-shoot like a skeet shooter is maybe not so good. Because based on that alone, open should be faster on those targets, since you actually have a more clear window and a magic dot bouncing around that tells you exactly where the bullets will hit.

Do you know what it takes to get a GM card? A lot of aiming. And you know what worked better, probably 90% of the time? Consciously thinking about your sights in relation to the target, not point shooting off your NPA.

[Gooldylocks]

OMG, I am not too sure of the intent of this post, whether too knock someone down, but you are so wrong. Even the most accomplished shooters aim. Lol, If you shoot a plate at 20 yds without aiming, you will be there for a while. 

It was comedic relief directed at the fact that saying you don't have to aim was perhaps a suspicious theory. At best. He was agreeing with me, by way of satire.

[3gunDQ]

Hmmm... so you guys are aiming? No way. 

[busdriver02]

I've seen/read/heard the dots are slower at short range thing before. Frequently, from good to very good iron sight shooters. It's like they think dots should be so much better, that actually being slower at first is a reflection on the dot rather than them.

[zzt]

bus, I've been shooting red dots for years.  I also shot Limited.  My Limited gun is a CZ 75 Tactical Sport.  The front sight is barely above the bore.  Other dots are slide mounted at varying heights above the bore.  The Open pistol I'm now shooting has a frame mount and an upright Slideride, and the dot is 2" above the center of the bore.  Using the Limited and my current Open gun, I'll give you a few examples of how a dot can be slower at close ranges.  I mentioned this above, but I'll be more explicit this time.

One of the clubs I shoot at delights in setting a number of targets 3' away from the fault line and covering the entire bottom of the target up to the bottom of the upper A zone.  There are variations to this, but they all look pretty much the same.  The Limited gun is lightning.  Put the FO front on the upper A zone perf and fire.  You get Alphas.  With the high mounted dot, it is not so simple.  You have to decide how far above the top of the target to aim to avoid a NS.  When the distances go out to 5 or 7 yards you have to decide where on the target to aim.  All of that takes a split second longer than with the Limited gun.

The second instance I noted is with very close targets where you are blazing by and hosing them.  If you are in some semblance of a normal shooting position, they are the same.  However, sometimes they are not.  Think running left at 45 degrees while engaging targets 90 or 100 degrees to your right.  NPA doesn't always apply here.  With the Limited gun you can clearly see all around the slide, and can simply look down the slide and fire.  With the Open gun, that is not possible.  The frame mount thumb rest and the massive Slideride make that impossible.  So you are forced to use the dot.  Since your position is not normal, it takes a split second to acquire the dot.  Or, you have to change your approach to the stage, and that probably adds time.

Except for these two instances, at ranges of 15 yards or less, I think them equal.  At longer ranges or shooting at the very tops of mostly hidden poppers, the dot it clearly more precise and faster.  BTW, none of this is a problem will FF3s mounted on milled slides.  The dot is barely above the top of the front sight, so they shoot like Limited with the precision of the dot.  I'm planning on converting the frame mount pistol to a slide mount this Winter, for precisely that reason.