PCC SWEEPING

[Kraj]

28 minutes ago, Jadeslade said:

Look at the Addendum for PCC, Here is the complete addendum. You are confusing PCC rules with handguns rules:

Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014. Pistol Caliber Carbine

Probably should take an RO course. DVC

 

"Addendum - an item of additional material, typically omissions, added at the end of a book or other publication."

Addendum is an addition of the rulebook, its not a stand alone document. 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, dcloudy777 said:

 

Nah... unfortunately the chamber flag plague has struck nearly every competitive venue, so I'll just suck it up and use the stupid things.  They're still dumb though.  

How are they dumb? They seem a pretty reliable way to tell if a chamber is empty with even a cursory glance.

[Jadeslade]

Well Emily Post, that's what they are called in the USPSA set of rules. Look for yourself. Go troll someone else.

51 minutes ago, Kraj said:

 

"Addendum - an item of additional material, typically omissions, added at the end of a book or other publication."

Addendum is an addition of the rulebook, its not a stand alone document. 

Wtf is your point? Your hat doesn't fit anymore? This is classic troll. Over and out. 

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, Jadeslade said:

Well Emily Post,

Is there a place I can go to leave negative feedback for that reference? 

[Thomas H]

The quote function REALLY doesn't work well here.  My original questions are first, Sarge's responses are in all caps (the way he wrote them), and my response are in italics under that.

 

What cares what they choose to wear?  EVIDENTLY IPSC/USPSA CARES BECAUSE YOU CANT WEAR MILITARY STYLE GARB  IN IPSC AND USPSA RULES GIVE MD's THE AUTHORITY TO DEEM WHAT IS INAPPROPRIATE DRESS.

USPSA rules give MDs the authority to deem what is inappropriate.  This is separate from making fun of people for what they are wearing.  Note:  We aren't in IPSC, so what they do about "military garb" isn't particularly relevant.  If an MD doesn't have a problem with it (and given a specific reason, he shouldn't) why is it that you do?

 

Are they safe?  SOMETIMES , BUT NOT TYPICALLY.

Sure, plenty of people who are often characterized as "Tactical Timmies" don't have good gun-handling skills.  Well, neither do the vast majority of people.  And yet, when people come to matches and screw up, don't we try to help them do better?  

SURE, WITHIN REASON. BUT MANY UNSAFE SHOOTERS WHO WERE EVENTUALLY DQ'ed THANKFULLY MOVED ON TO SOMETHING ELSE. AND GUESS WHAT? I AM GLAD THEY DID.

 

...which has nothing to do with the point, which is, why act one way towards people wearing one type of clothing, and a different way to everyone else?  Is there a reason for this, or is it what I said next:

 

Are we deciding instead to act like unhelpful @s$es because we don't like the clothes they are wearing?  Seriously? SERIOUSLY, THAT HAS MORE TO DO WITH YOUR NARRATIVE THAN THE MAIN POINT OF THE THREAD. 

You said, and I quote:

“Mostly wannabes from what I'm seeing.”
“I was trying to be polite and not call them tactical timmies. They are wannabe operators with knives on their belts, boots, etc.“

As such, that would be YOUR narrative, not mine.  You are saying you treat new shooters differently because of what they are wearing.  I'm thinking you should probably choose how you treat them based on their actions, but that's me.

Main point, however:  A rules discussion based on clothing choice isn't really a strong basis.

 

At our matches, we specifically do NOT designate any berm area for unbagging PCCs, and we don't have long gun racks on every stage.  We tell PCC shooters that given this situation, the PCC stays in the bag and they bring it to the line...and at the end of the stage, their buddy needs to bring up the bag so they can re-bag immediately.  It has worked with no issues at all so far.    And we don't have people walking around sweeping other people with a gun in their hands, nor do we have sling issues. THATS BECAUSE YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE RULES AS WRITTEN. SO, YOU MUST SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE PICTURE. 

 

Ignore the rules?  The rules say that the MD may designate a berm area for a certain purpose, not that they have to do so.  We don't do so, in accordance with the choices made available in the rules.   

Tell me, do, where are we ignoring the rules as writen?  What rule are we not following? 

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

I have gotten a response from Troy on the questions I sent him, you can see how he responded(blue) to my email(black) and then at the end in smaller black font he gave me part of a post of his from the USPSA forum

I have a question about rule 10.5.2 

"10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of

his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the

median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows

the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not

(limited exceptions: 10.5.6)."

Am I to read this as the stated actions are only DQ'able under 10.5 during the COF? ie between "make ready" and "range is clear"?

Yes, this is the 180 or 90 degree rule.  Holstered handguns are exempted, and there is a 3 foot rule for when it's holstered, so even then it could be a DQ if the holster is canted too much.

 

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if PCC rule 10.5.2, being subset of rule 10.5.2, is only applicable during the same time frame(COF)?

"PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted."

 

More specifically, If a PCC gun sweeps the shooter or another competitor while it is slung/carried "reasonably vertical, and flagged, outside of the COF, is that grounds for DQ per 10.5 or its subset?

I'd say yes, see my detailed information below.  10.5.2.1 is a somewhat clumsy attempt to clarify muzzle direction.  10.5.5 still applies within the COF.

 

 

 Example: 

1) Shooter approaches start position while PCC is slung or carried "reasonably vertical) and flagged, and muzzle sweeps shooter or other competitors on the way to the position. Is shooter DQed?

 

2)After "range is clear" command is given, shooter wants to follow RO to check hits. PCC while slung or carried "reasonably vertical" and flagged sweeps his/her feet or the RO's feet. Is shooter DQed?

For this one, I'd say no to the lower extremities, because that's almost impossible to prevent, but I will probably tweak that rule to say "muzzle vertically up" and disallow the down.
I also may cut out the slings.  Not needed, and they will definitely cause "less than vertical" carry.

 

I know we all want to avoid sweeping and being swept at all times, but it seems that it is more difficult(for some situations) for it to be avoided.  I just want it to be clear at matches what constitutes a PCC sweeping DQ. 

I do, too.  It's just not that easy with a long gun carried in two hands, and I don't think we want to just say "if it's flagged don't worry about it".

 

 I would imagine the worst case scenario of a PCC shooter sweeping someone while not holding the gun "reasonably vertical" ie straight up pointing it at someone would be a DQ because the gun is no longer "reasonably vertical", but what rule # would that fall under?

 

I know the rules are still in tweaking stage, and I thank you for all your hard work.

 

 

Thank you

Patrick Scott

From my forum answer:

Over the last month, I've had discussions with several people regarding this topic.  Specifically, the instructor corps, the MG rules guys, other people who either run PCC a lot, or don't run it at all, and listened to their concerns and a number of proposed solutions.  I've also RM'd a section match, taught two seminars, and had a week-long USPSA leadership meeting where this subject was discussed as well.  The simple reason I haven't gotten back to you, Mr. Scott, is that there isn't a simple answer to that question, given the variations in carrying long guns that we see in USPSA Multigun.  And, I've been busy as hell, and your question isn't the only one I've gotten in those 30 days.   Note that I think Dan Minter has a good discussion and a reasonable solution to the issue, and that is that if you are carrying your PCC (or rifle or shotgun for MG rules) reasonably vertical with a chamber flag inserted, then you are OK.  If you manipulate it into a horizontal or less than "reasonably vertical" position and point the muzzle at yourself or somebody else, it's a sweeping DQ, regardless of whether it's flagged or not, in the course of fire or being uncased somewhere..  The other issue is that sweeping, as defined in the rule book and as stated in the rule, are somewhat at odds,  The bottom line is this:  at what point is a long gun considered "inert", and sweeping would not apply?  This was the issue at the MG nationals last year--there wasn't a clear rule to apply to the situation.  And, as Mr. Minter has pointed out, long guns with chamber flags inserted have generally been considered safe to handle and "inert".  With handguns, it's "inert" when it's holstered, and that's not been a problem, but you still can't just drop your belt with the gun in the holster unless you are in a safety area.  With long guns, it's both the condition of the gun and the position it's being carried in, which makes the rule open to subjective interpretation.  It also makes it difficult to write a rule that is objective, practicable for competitors, and enforceable.  For now, I would say (As my personal opinion, not a rule or ruling) that with regards to long guns (let's just make this applicable to all long guns),  when you are casing or uncasing, you may not sweep anybody or yourself.  If you do so, it's a DQ.  Until it's out of the case, then it's not always obvious that it's flagged, and many people take it out of the case horizontally or nearly so.  If it's in a rack, or on a cart and not in your hands, or if it's in a case, then sweeping doesn't apply, ever, but a good practice would be to keep it pointed away from as many people as possible.  If it's in your hands and flagged, then reasonably vertical for carry, up or down, is acceptable.  Maybe a "degree rule" could be formulated, but I think it would be difficult to enforce. Making people case and uncase on the line might be both time consuming and ultimately unworkable because of issues with cases having to be removed, brought to the end position, tripped over--I don't know.  And, having a cased gun doesn't mean someone isn't pointing a muzzle at you, it just means that gun is in a case and you can't see what condition it's in.  I'd almost prefer to require them to come to the line uncased, muzzle up, so we can tell it's flagged and not pointed at anyone.

We are still addressing this issue, and when we can get to a general consensus, I'll have an answer.

Sorry for the delay.  

 

Regards,

T

[Sarge]

Wait a minute. That first answer can't be right! Troy is saying if you get "make ready", then drop something and bend over to pick it up you could be DQed because your holstered pistol violates the 3 ft rule? That's nonsense!

What about a seated start? Holstered guns very often break 3 ft rule while taking a seat or after sitting.

Hell, just bending over and wiping your hands off on your pants breaks that rule!

 

But I totally agree slings should go away. Unfortunately he takes it a step further and says may do away with muzzle down option. I specifically set up my cart to carry PCC muzzle down based off of him personally oking my setup.

 

[Patrick Scott]

9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Wait a minute. That first answer can't be right! Troy is saying if you get "make ready", then drop something and bend over to pick it up you could be DQed because your holstered pistol violates the 3 ft rule? That's nonsense!

What about a seated start? Holstered guns very often break 3 ft rule while taking a seat or after sitting.

Hell, just bending over and wiping your hands off on your pants breaks that rule!

 

But I totally agree slings should go away. Unfortunately he takes it a step further and says may do away with muzzle down option. I specifically set up my cart to carry PCC muzzle down based off of him personally oking my setup.

 

Your right about sitting and being seated, but there is no rule exempting us during those circumstances.Should that be visited? I don't know, and I certainly did not mean to open that can of worms.

I also share your feelings about slings and  up vs. down as my cart is set-up the same way.  

I think the main thing we should take away from this is that the NROI has in fact been listening to us and is working out the kinks. We (should have)knew(known) from the start that running rifles under our current rule book would be challenge and as such we should expect some bumps in the road. Like it or not.  Challenges are just that, an obstacle to overcome. 

“The secret of change is to focus all your energy, not fighting the old, but on building the new.”― Socrates

 

[bret]

on one of these posts, It was mentioned if a shooter is carrying a long gun on a cart and it is flagged and horizontal, it was ok and not sweeping anyone.

There is a guy that has a cart like this at a local multigun match, when he takes it off the cart, he typically sweeps people on the squad, and again when putting it back on his cart.

To me this is sweeping, but others think it's ok since it's unloaded and flagged.

Am I correct, this is sweeping?

[outerlimits]

30 minutes ago, bret said:

on one of these posts, It was mentioned if a shooter is carrying a long gun on a cart and it is flagged and horizontal, it was ok and not sweeping anyone.

There is a guy that has a cart like this at a local multigun match, when he takes it off the cart, he typically sweeps people on the squad, and again when putting it back on his cart.

To me this is sweeping, but others think it's ok since it's unloaded and flagged.

Am I correct, this is sweeping?

Only a jackass would do that.  Seasoned 3gunners know full well you better put yer cart against a berm and retrieve yer long guns pointing at the berm.  If you sweep,someone while retrieving a long gun, you should go home, after you get yer butt kicked.

[Nik Habicht]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

Wait a minute. That first answer can't be right! Troy is saying if you get "make ready", then drop something and bend over to pick it up you could be DQed because your holstered pistol violates the 3 ft rule? That's nonsense!

What about a seated start? Holstered guns very often break 3 ft rule while taking a seat or after sitting.

Hell, just bending over and wiping your hands off on your pants breaks that rule!

Better read the "three foot rule" before suggesting Troy was wrong -- he was clearly talking about gun handling during the course of fire:

Quote

10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering.

So yeah -- that could be a problem if you bend at the waist while drawing or reholstering, or if you draw/reholster while seated.  That's really nothing new.

 

As far as the cart set-up issue -- I'd write the rule to allow muzzle down on a cart -- as the gun isn't being carried, and is chamber-flagged, that should be inert enough, almost like a holstered handgun.  Then it's just incumbent on the competitor to pull the cart up to a suitable berm when removing the rifle, reversing the direction to muzzle up.  Speaking of which -- I'm really not wild about muzzle up carry for a couple of reasons:  Feet are low, heads are high -- catching an AD with either one could prove fatal, but I suspect the odds go way up for impact to the head/torso.  Also -- AD over the berm becomes a concern, if the gun wasn't properly cleared, with muzzle up carry.

[TxD]

6 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

14 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

I have gotten a response from Troy on the questions I sent him, you can see how he responded(blue) to my email(black) and then at the end in smaller black font he gave me part of a post of his from the USPSA forum

I have a question about rule 10.5.2 

"10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of

his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the

median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows

the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not

(limited exceptions: 10.5.6)."

Am I to read this as the stated actions are only DQ'able under 10.5 during the COF? ie between "make ready" and "range is clear"?

Yes, this is the 180 or 90 degree rule.  Holstered handguns are exempted, and there is a 3 foot rule for when it's holstered, so even then it could be a DQ if the holster is canted too much.

 

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if PCC rule 10.5.2, being subset of rule 10.5.2, is only applicable during the same time frame(COF)?

"PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted."

 

More specifically, If a PCC gun sweeps the shooter or another competitor while it is slung/carried "reasonably vertical, and flagged, outside of the COF, is that grounds for DQ per 10.5 or its subset?

I'd say yes, see my detailed information below.  10.5.2.1 is a somewhat clumsy attempt to clarify muzzle direction.  10.5.5 still applies within the COF.

 

 

 Example: 

1) Shooter approaches start position while PCC is slung or carried "reasonably vertical) and flagged, and muzzle sweeps shooter or other competitors on the way to the position. Is shooter DQed?

 

2)After "range is clear" command is given, shooter wants to follow RO to check hits. PCC while slung or carried "reasonably vertical" and flagged sweeps his/her feet or the RO's feet. Is shooter DQed?

For this one, I'd say no to the lower extremities, because that's almost impossible to prevent, but I will probably tweak that rule to say "muzzle vertically up" and disallow the down.
I also may cut out the slings.  Not needed, and they will definitely cause "less than vertical" carry.

 

I know we all want to avoid sweeping and being swept at all times, but it seems that it is more difficult(for some situations) for it to be avoided.  I just want it to be clear at matches what constitutes a PCC sweeping DQ. 

I do, too.  It's just not that easy with a long gun carried in two hands, and I don't think we want to just say "if it's flagged don't worry about it".

 

 I would imagine the worst case scenario of a PCC shooter sweeping someone while not holding the gun "reasonably vertical" ie straight up pointing it at someone would be a DQ because the gun is no longer "reasonably vertical", but what rule # would that fall under?

 

I know the rules are still in tweaking stage, and I thank you for all your hard work.

 

 

Thank you

Patrick Scott

From my forum answer:

Over the last month, I've had discussions with several people regarding this topic.  Specifically, the instructor corps, the MG rules guys, other people who either run PCC a lot, or don't run it at all, and listened to their concerns and a number of proposed solutions.  I've also RM'd a section match, taught two seminars, and had a week-long USPSA leadership meeting where this subject was discussed as well.  The simple reason I haven't gotten back to you, Mr. Scott, is that there isn't a simple answer to that question, given the variations in carrying long guns that we see in USPSA Multigun.  And, I've been busy as hell, and your question isn't the only one I've gotten in those 30 days.   Note that I think Dan Minter has a good discussion and a reasonable solution to the issue, and that is that if you are carrying your PCC (or rifle or shotgun for MG rules) reasonably vertical with a chamber flag inserted, then you are OK.  If you manipulate it into a horizontal or less than "reasonably vertical" position and point the muzzle at yourself or somebody else, it's a sweeping DQ, regardless of whether it's flagged or not, in the course of fire or being uncased somewhere..  The other issue is that sweeping, as defined in the rule book and as stated in the rule, are somewhat at odds,  The bottom line is this:  at what point is a long gun considered "inert", and sweeping would not apply?  This was the issue at the MG nationals last year--there wasn't a clear rule to apply to the situation.  And, as Mr. Minter has pointed out, long guns with chamber flags inserted have generally been considered safe to handle and "inert".  With handguns, it's "inert" when it's holstered, and that's not been a problem, but you still can't just drop your belt with the gun in the holster unless you are in a safety area.  With long guns, it's both the condition of the gun and the position it's being carried in, which makes the rule open to subjective interpretation.  It also makes it difficult to write a rule that is objective, practicable for competitors, and enforceable.  For now, I would say (As my personal opinion, not a rule or ruling) that with regards to long guns (let's just make this applicable to all long guns),  when you are casing or uncasing, you may not sweep anybody or yourself.  If you do so, it's a DQ.  Until it's out of the case, then it's not always obvious that it's flagged, and many people take it out of the case horizontally or nearly so.  If it's in a rack, or on a cart and not in your hands, or if it's in a case, then sweeping doesn't apply, ever, but a good practice would be to keep it pointed away from as many people as possible.  If it's in your hands and flagged, then reasonably vertical for carry, up or down, is acceptable.  Maybe a "degree rule" could be formulated, but I think it would be difficult to enforce. Making people case and uncase on the line might be both time consuming and ultimately unworkable because of issues with cases having to be removed, brought to the end position, tripped over--I don't know.  And, having a cased gun doesn't mean someone isn't pointing a muzzle at you, it just means that gun is in a case and you can't see what condition it's in.  I'd almost prefer to require them to come to the line uncased, muzzle up, so we can tell it's flagged and not pointed at anyone.

We are still addressing this issue, and when we can get to a general consensus, I'll have an answer.

Sorry for the delay.  

 

Regards,

T

 

I think it should be noted that a chamber flag is optional when properly transporting the carbine between the "PCC Safe Area" and the starting position.

PCC 5.2.1.6  Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag.

[bret]

10 hours ago, outerlimits said:

Only a jackass would do that.  Seasoned 3gunners know full well you better put yer cart against a berm and retrieve yer long guns pointing at the berm.  If you sweep,someone while retrieving a long gun, you should go home, after you get yer butt kicked.

unfortunately it happens and when you say something, they always say, it's not loaded.

A trip to Dairy Queen should take care of it.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

Better read the "three foot rule" before suggesting Troy was wrong -- he was clearly talking about gun handling during the course of fire:

So yeah -- that could be a problem if you bend at the waist while drawing or reholstering, or if you draw/reholster while seated.  That's really nothing new.

 

As far as the cart set-up issue -- I'd write the rule to allow muzzle down on a cart -- as the gun isn't being carried, and is chamber-flagged, that should be inert enough, almost like a holstered handgun.  Then it's just incumbent on the competitor to pull the cart up to a suitable berm when removing the rifle, reversing the direction to muzzle up.  Speaking of which -- I'm really not wild about muzzle up carry for a couple of reasons:  Feet are low, heads are high -- catching an AD with either one could prove fatal, but I suspect the odds go way up for impact to the head/torso.  Also -- AD over the berm becomes a concern, if the gun wasn't properly cleared, with muzzle up carry.

Troy specifically said "holstered". Not holstering or being holstered. Holstered means in a holster no?

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Troy specifically said "holstered". Not holstering or being holstered. Holstered means in a holster no?

hol·ster

ˈhōlstər/

verb

past tense: holstered; past participle: holstered

1. put (a gun) into its holster.

    

    

   I think it means that at sometime in the past the gun was put into a holster, but does not necessarily mean that the gun is still in a holster.

    

    

   But that is not important now. 

[Nik Habicht]

6 hours ago, Sarge said:

Troy specifically said "holstered". Not holstering or being holstered. Holstered means in a holster no?

I'm thinking he didn't parse his words because he wanted to point out that 10.5.6 exists; not make a ruling in his answer....

[Patrick Scott]

10.5.6 does say "facing down range", is seated, sitting, bending over, bent over all the same as facing downrange?


Rule book definition of facing down range and a NROI ruling:
 

Facing Down Range ........The exact opposite of facing uprange.

"The definition of Facing Uprange is amended to read: "Face and Feet pointing directly (180 degrees) away from the backstop with shoulders and hips parallel to the backstop." A natural, "toes out" stance is acceptable and meets the standard of feet pointing directly away from the backstop, as long as both feet do not point in the same direction, and the rest of the position requirements are satisfied."

 

[Jadeslade]

This the PCC sweeping thread. Can we stop talking about pistols and holsters. Not relevant. Do good gun handling, remember the cardinal rules of gun safety. and don't sweep people with your PCC. I know this thread will go on for years, but it is just wrong to argue against gun safety. Everything will be great, we have wonderful people working on it.

[dcloudy777]

On 11/12/2016 at 6:41 PM, Sarge said:

How are they dumb? They seem a pretty reliable way to tell if a chamber is empty with even a cursory glance.

Because neither the "safety" of a gun nor the rules for its handling change one iota if the chamber is empty or not.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, dcloudy777 said:

Because neither the "safety" of a gun nor the rules for its handling change one iota if the chamber is empty or not.

Point missed.

[GrumpyOne]

No dog in this fight, but it sure does seem that PCC is becoming more of a PITA than anyone thought it would be, in relation to the rules. There almost needs to be a separate section in the rulebook for PCC, not addendums to the pistol rules. These are just my opinions, and there is no need to pay any heed to them.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

No dog in this fight, but it sure does seem that PCC is becoming more of a PITA than anyone thought it would be, in relation to the rules. There almost needs to be a separate section in the rulebook for PCC, not addendums to the pistol rules. These are just my opinions, and there is no need to pay any heed to them.

I think the turbulence is coming more from the how things were done than from the what was done. 

Sending a variety of people to local matches with new and different equipment and without complete and well understood rules is not what you would call insightful.

Once we get the cart behind the horse I think all will be good. 

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I think the turbulence is coming more from the how things were done than from the what was done. 

Sending a variety of people to local matches with new and different equipment and without complete and well understood rules is not what you would call insightful.

Once we get the cart behind the horse I think all will be good. 

^this. From my conversations with a few guys in NROI, they are working on it. 

[Rangerdug]

This is absolutely a stupid argument from both sides.
Muzzle awareness is the foundation of all gun safety. Intent has never been justification.
As for PITA, again this has yet to materialize outside of this forum.
I agree that clear cut rules are a must, I do get tired of the weekly changes, but (if that is the price of admission) you adjust to it and shoot like every other match. I have yet to see a delay caused by a PCC shooter.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dcloudy777]

I and the other handful of PCC shooters at the club I shoot at have just been unbagging/bagging at the line.  It's fast, it's easy.

Unload & show clear, hammer down, in the bag, range is safe.  Seemed a little awkward until I actually shot a stage and did it.  It adds no time, certainly not as much as futzing around with dumb chamber flags (or the occasional "can't get the gun back in the holster" moments that happen to everyone from time to time, for that matter).

On stages that "end" a long way from the start position, the RO, scorekeeper, or even another shooter can lag behind with the shooter's bag so it's available at the end of the stage.