Walkthrough Question

[John Heiter]

Don't ask me why, but there's something in my personality that makes me want to not only pass RO recert exams but ace them. I just got back my latest exam and it seems I blew it on one of the questions but I still can't really figure out how.

Q: A competitor is moving through the course of fire during the walkthrough with a loaded magazine in their hand, they will receive a procedural penalty for this action.

True or False and state the supporting rule.

Before I post my answer and reasoning, I'd like to see what you guys can come up with.

Thanks much,

John

[ErikW]

True, 8.7.4

[sargenv]

Don't ask me why, but there's something in my personality that makes me want to not only pass RO recert exams but ace them.  I just got back my latest exam and it seems I blew it on one of the questions but I still can't really figure out how.

Q: A competitor is moving through the course of fire during the walkthrough with a loaded magazine in their hand, they will receive a procedural penalty for this action.

True or False and state the supporting rule.

Before I post my answer and reasoning, I'd like to see what you guys can come up with. 

Thanks much,

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rule is 8.7.4, and the answer is true. Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearms including any accessories there of)... and it goes on.

That is the rule, the question is, at which level will they ding you at? A lot of RO's who have not taken the class will not ding you for that (they don't know it) but at a level 3 match, you can bet the dedicated RO will either warn you not to do that, or will ding you for it.

Vince

[The Hangin' Chad]

WOW

I'm glad this was brought up, I never had a clue.

I haven't read very much of the rule book, but if it wasn't for you guys I wouldn't have read any of it at all.

THC

[John Heiter]

I guess what got me is that the question didn't mention that the competitor was using the magazine as a sighting aid. It just said that the competitor had it in their hand.

I answered

"False - unless the competitor used the magazine as a sighting aid at which point 8.7.4 would come into play"

but my answer was marked wrong without an explanation. I guess I just question reading words into rules that aren't there. I mean if I had a pencil in my hand during a walkthrough but I was holding it down at waist level would that be a procedural? I'm not using it as a sighting aid but I could. Maybe I'm trying to read the rulebook like it's a course description and I should be doing more rule interpretation on the range rather than taking them literally.

[johnhurd]

I say false the question says " moving through the course of fire during the walkthrough with a loaded magazine in their hand" doesn't say they are using it as a sighiting aid!!!! I suppose the range nazis will ding me for rolling a booger between my finger and thumb while walking thru a COF ....puleeze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tie this to the "How can we get more shooters involved" thread

[.40AET]

I suppose the range nazis will ding me for rolling a booger between my finger and thumb while walking thru a COF ....puleeze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My 5 year old would ding you for the booger between your fingers.

You know what sucks? The new rule was probably created because some jackass used a squirt gun durning the walkthrough and some one freaked out. So they changed the rule to NOTHING in your hands.

Sory, I think this is a ridiculous addition to the book. Don't forget, if your caught with a booger between your finger and thumb you won't just be John any more. It will be Booger John from then on.

[ErikW]

I caught myself holding up a roll of tape at a target, and maybe a magazine I picked up from the previous shooter. It's easy to get a brain fade and get dinged.

[johnhurd]

Note to self "Don't pick boogers"

[ErikW]

Pick all you want, just don't hold them in front of your face to admire them.

[Ray_Z]

Last I heard we worked from facts, not assumptions. You would have to assume that the shooter was using the mag as a sighting aid.

[SteveZ]

The rule is 8.7.4, and the answer is true. Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearms including any accessories there of)... and it goes on.

That is the rule, the question is, at which level will they ding you at? A lot of RO's who have not taken the class will not ding you for that (they don't know it) but at a level 3 match, you can bet the dedicated RO will either warn you not to do that, or will ding you for it.

Vince

Ok...lets take this one level further 8.7.4 in its entirity says....

8.7.4 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the

whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real

firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their

own hands, while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of

a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per

occurrence.

So if holding a magazine in your hand (maybe its even your weak hand) but not using it is a violation of 8.7.4 (part of a real firearm)....what about holding a pencil in your weak hand while you walk through the stage pointing at targets with your strong hand? Is the pencil a sighting aid? Its not part of your own hands...and its not being used any differently than the magazine in question above.

It would seem that if the magazine is illegal to hold in your hand...then ANYTHING is illegal to hold in your hand while doing a walkthrough.

I sometimes wonder what kinda tricks they like to pull on the RO Recert exam. I had this one which was marked wrong.

"Is switching guns or sights between stages allowed?"

I answered "Yes, 5.1.7; provided they first seek permission from the Range Master and the replacement gun complies with 5.1.7.1, 5.1.7.2 and 5.1.7.3"

My test was marked "NO, Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match."

I stated the second part of 5.1.7 as the exception...so I think the answer is yes. Of course if I answered NO...then they'd probably say the answer is yes provided you seek permission and blah blah blah"

Reminds me of the the question "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes/No"

[Jim Norman]

Another DUMB RULE, the reason behind it was allegedly that someone had put a C-more on a dummy gun to air gun a stage and obviously someone was downrange and looked back, and freaked out. Understandably so, but of course we had to write a rule and in so doing go overboard.

Jim

[scooterj]

Benny Hill used to sell a walk through stick, which had front and rear sights and fit into the top of an empty mag. Think that's how this whole deal got started.

[BSeevers]

I really don't like this rule, among other new ones, but we are stuck with it for a while

[Jake Di Vita]

I think it's just a way to screw shooters who are air gunning with a mag totally innocently. I practically had to tackle my buddy at a recent match because he was doing it and didn't realize it.

IMHO, this rule is WAY too draconian.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm relatively certain, that some of the questions on the various re-certification exams are ambiguously worded ---- so ambiguously, that two correct answers would be possible........

[Qstick]

Pick all you want, just don't hold them in front of your face to admire them

Erik - I think you can admire them all you want - it is the rolling that is the issue

I found myself using one of the the previous shooter's dropped mags for an airgunning tool at a local match last weekend.

[AikiDale]

I'm relatively certain, that some of the questions on the various re-certification exams are ambiguously worded ---- so ambiguously, that two correct answers would be possible........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect a rational answer which would pass arbitration might get scored as incorrect if it was not the answer the originator of the question had in mind. Didn't you learn in school to give the expected answer not the one you thought was right?

[Flexmoney]

I don't care for this new rule much. Frankly, I don't care if you have a squirt gun and use it in your walk-through (just don't get the targets so wet that pasters won't stick).

But, we have it. I'll be trying to remember not to have anything in my hands when I walk thru a cof...including a water bottle.

Now, if I were sitting on an arbitration committee...if the shooter wasn't using the "stuff in their hands" as a "sighting aid", then I would vote against the procedural.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't care for this new rule much.  Frankly, I don't care if you have a squirt gun and use it in your walk-through (just don't get the targets so wet that pasters won't stick).

But, we have it.  I'll be trying to remember not to have anything in my hands when I walk thru a cof...including a water bottle.

Now, if I were sitting on an arbitration committee...if the shooter wasn't using the "stuff in their hands" as a "sighting aid", then I would vote against the procedural.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that if you merriam webster "e.g." and then look up the definitions of example, you might be allright using that water bottle.....

[schoonie]

At a recent state match I got warned because I had a lit cigar in my hand when I was inspecting the stage the day before I was to shoot it. I thought the RO was joking until I remembered the new rule and realized that it really was a warning!

Smokers beware when walking stages!

[cking]

pointing your finger is about your allowed now. Can I say bang!?

[vluc]

I think I answered both ways...false if just in hand, true if used as a sighting aid.

Many of us have seen fellow shooters loading mags while walking through a cof...is that now illegal too?

I suppose then that a shooter who is adjusting magazines and removes them while walking a cof is dinged?

I understand the sighting aid thing, I do not understand simply having one in your hand...

[mactiger]

The question is ambiguously worded, and I'll change it to read: "using a magazine as a sighting aid..." or something similar to that wording, so there is no question about what the competitor is doing. The intent of the rule, like it or not, (and for the record I don't like it, and worked to keep it out of the book), is to prevent you from walking through a course of fire using a dummy gun, walk-through stick, magazine, etc., as a sighting aid. Now, I personally don't have a problem with any of these; as long as you aren't using your gun, I don't care. (Hell, I own and used to use a Benny Hill walk-thru stick.) But, the rule is the rule, so sighting aids are illegal. It didn't stem from any one incident, and I don't recall the exact wording in the discussions, but the rule made it through the committees and into the book.

As for the call: if you are just walking through a course of fire holding something, it is not a procedural. If you are using something in your hand as a "sighting aid", then it violates the rule. So, cigars, the previous competitor's magazine, a roll of tape, or a pencil, as long as you aren't looking down it at the targets, are not "sighting aids". This should be cleared up, and I'll ask John to post something about it on the NROI page. The topic was also brought up on the IPSC forum, with the same answer: not using it as a sighting aid--no problem.

The rule: if you don't like it, let your area director know. NROI cannot change the rules, we can only educate and train.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Troy