perttime Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 9 hours ago, bret said: if it said all magazines from the barrel if he did not use the one on his belt, he had to use the magazines from the barrel, how can he get a procedural? if he used the magazine on his belt, he failed to follow the WSB. If it says ALL magazines from the barrel, there should not be any on the belt at the beep. If there is one magazine on the belt, they are not ALL on the barrel. I think I have that part of the English language right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 52 minutes ago, perttime said: If it says ALL magazines from the barrel, there should not be any on the belt at the beep. If there is one magazine on the belt, they are not ALL on the barrel. I think I have that part of the English language right. To extend that logic, if the shooter has any mags in their pockets, range bag or car, they are in violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ChuckS said: To extend that logic, if the shooter has any mags in their pockets, range bag or car, they are in violation. ...and to extend Chuck's "logic" (or "whimsical illogic", as it were), if the shooter had some mags in transit from Shooters Connection, or was just *thinking* about getting some new mags... Edited October 23, 2017 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock_40_caliber Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 3 hours ago, perttime said: If it says ALL magazines from the barrel, there should not be any on the belt at the beep. If there is one magazine on the belt, they are not ALL on the barrel. I think I have that part of the English language right. If that was the case why did the ro start him since he was not in compliance with the WSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 1 hour ago, teros135 said: ...and to extend Chuck's "logic" (or "whimsical illogic", as it were), if the shooter had some mags in transit from Shooters Connection, or was just *thinking* about getting some new mags... It looks like it is wise-ass Monday. In any case, USPSA is freestyle. If you want the shooter to have empty pouches, put it in the WSB. If you just say all reloads must come from barrels/tables/etc, put that in the WSB but do not make up stuff like "that means empty pouches". Be specific and let the shooter shoot. I, personally, learned a long time ago it is a very very very bad idea to have a mag on the belt when the reloads were to come from somewhere else*. If some person likes to keep their barney mag in the back pouch or some such thing, what is the big deal? Reloads come from elsewhere. Let them do what they like to do and they pay the price if they screw up later. Injecting unnecessary drama into someone's make ready time is just not cool. Later, Chuck * I also learned to never ever ever ever have a mag with more than 10 rounds in a round-limited division. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, perttime said: If it says ALL magazines from the barrel, there should not be any on the belt at the beep. If there is one magazine on the belt, they are not ALL on the barrel. I think I have that part of the English language right. no, you don't have that part of english right. all magazines 'from the barrel', is not the same as all magazines 'on the barrel'. 'from' implies that any magazine you use must come from the barrel, not from the belt, although unless it was worded more specifically, you could probably take it from the barrel, put it on your belt, and then use it. but whatever.... Edited October 23, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 How WAS it worded? That should settle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 18 hours ago, glock_40_caliber said: If that was the case why did the ro start him since he was not in compliance with the WSB? if the wsb says loaded start and the shooters doesn't load his gun but gets in the start position, should the RO start the shooter, or tell the shooter he forgot to load his gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 21 hours ago, perttime said: If it says ALL magazines from the barrel, there should not be any on the belt at the beep. If there is one magazine on the belt, they are not ALL on the barrel. I think I have that part of the English language right. all magazines from the barrel mean the ones being used, it isn't hard to understand English, the problem is people try to read too much into a wsb and add stuff that isn't in it. If he ends up using one from his belt, front pocket, back pocket, from his sock, under his hat, etc. give him a procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 hours ago, bret said: if the wsb says loaded start and the shooters doesn't load his gun but gets in the start position, should the RO start the shooter, or tell the shooter he forgot to load his gun? Was that a rhetorical question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 hours ago, bret said: all magazines from the barrel mean the ones being used, ... Can you quote a Rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, perttime said: Can you quote a Rule? English, moth#*&$*#&!, do you speak it! from <> on 2 separate prepositions which mean different things. Sadly the rulebook does not define every word in the english language, so it's up to stage designers to write a wsb that doesn't lead to retarded threads on the interwebz. someone may have failed in that task in this instance, or else the actual wording of the wsb was just never reported. If it's up for interpretation, and 2 different RO's can interpret it different ways, then it's a WSB fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, perttime said: Can you quote a Rule? 5.2.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, teros135 said: Was that a rhetorical question? If someone forgets or fails to load their gun during the Make Ready (On a loaded start) and they get in the start position, what is the Range Officer supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, bret said: 5.2.4 "... unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure ..." Sadly, we do not know what exactly the Written Stage Briefing stipulated. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 59 minutes ago, bret said: If someone forgets or fails to load their gun during the Make Ready (On a loaded start) and they get in the start position, what is the Range Officer supposed to do? ROs are supposed to proceed to "are you ready?" command... Now - that being said, at a level I match...I will usually say "are" really differently...or if a new shooter, I would probably give the make ready command again until they get it...they may not know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 7 hours ago, bret said: if the wsb says loaded start and the shooters doesn't load his gun but gets in the start position, should the RO start the shooter, or tell the shooter he forgot to load his gun? I saw this one too. The RO started him knowing the gun was empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, bret said: If someone forgets or fails to load their gun during the Make Ready (On a loaded start) and they get in the start position, what is the Range Officer supposed to do? I guess it's really a Socratic question, to teach those of us who don't know rule 8.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, motosapiens said: English, moth#*&$*#&!, do you speak it! "What?" "What?" (Bam!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, AWLAZS said: I saw this one too. The RO started him knowing the gun was empty. Yes, like he/she's supposed to. Ammo management is the shooter's responsibility (8.1) and ROs aren't supposed to coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, bret said: If someone forgets or fails to load their gun during the Make Ready (On a loaded start) and they get in the start position, what is the Range Officer supposed to do? Give them a procedural for failing to follow the WSB - they were supposed to start loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 hours ago, teros135 said: Yes, like he/she's supposed to. Ammo management is the shooter's responsibility (8.1) and ROs aren't supposed to coach. Yup, unless your feet are not touching ng the x's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, AWLAZS said: Yup, unless your feet are not touching ng the x's No, that's not coaching, it's directing the shooter to the specified start position (and you aren't going to start them until they're in the proper position, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 4 hours ago, teros135 said: No, that's not coaching, it's directing the shooter to the specified start position (and you aren't going to start them until they're in the proper position, right?) Right, telling someone there feet are in the wrong place is ok. If someone loads for an unloaded start. You make them unload. If you see the person forgot to load it let it go because that's coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) On 6/3/2016 at 11:45 AM, NicVerAZ said: The CoF describes that all magazines used during the stage are to be placed on top of barrels, tables, etc... The shooter keeps one magazine on his belt and is reminded of the stage rule described above. While shooting the stage, the shooter accidentally reloads with the magazine on his belt. Does he incur one procedural or one per shot fired from this magazine? I believe the latter but what rule should I invoke? Thanks! 10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). The stage description says " all magazines used during the stage." It would not matter if the competitor started with all magazine pouches full of magazines and three in each pocket. so long as the only magazines actually USED DURING THE STAGE came from placement on top of a barrel. The scoring would be a penalty for each shot fired from magazine not having come from the top of a barrel, as it is a significant advantage. Really wouldn't matter if the word "used" was there or not, the wsb has to do with execution of a cof, not how many magazines the competitor owns or has in his possession. To think otherwise would require pat downs and searches upon completion of a stage. lol. You wouldn't double dip with another penalty for failure to comply with stage wsb (placing of the magazines) because you are already making that penalty for each shot fired due to the same noncompliance. Not sure how this is confusing. Maybe reading too much into it. Its no different that shooting single stack and keeping a barney mag in the front pocket - its not an issue until you actually use it during a stage. 18 hours ago, bret said: If someone forgets or fails to load their gun during the Make Ready (On a loaded start) and they get in the start position, what is the Range Officer supposed to do? 8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun. Edited October 25, 2017 by Hammer002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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