Unfair DQs

[BeerBaron]

After all this I want to know what was this "GM move" that you were practicing at home that is so close to the 180? you obviously knew it was close to 180 as you had your wife watch you perform this gm move and then ask her if you broke 180?

On the topic of DQ's I learned something very important in one of my first matches.

I was a production C grade shooter and for the first time felt I was shooting well and beating my fellow C graders. I was running first in C grade with just one more 50 point stage to come. I was super stoked to be so close to getting my first small victory. I won't tell the whole story but I was on a wonky bridge stage that had a railing. you had to engage low targets through ports in the front 'wall' of the bridge and I could best do that SHO holding the railing with WH for support. On the 3rd such port I came very close to sweeping my WH as I came back up from the port. RO (who is a friend of mine and GM) called STOP. DQ. I had a camera on and later watched the footage. There was no sweeping, BUT I can see how from where he was standing it would have looked close. since sweeping is a severe safety issue I can see why he called the DQ.

My lesson was this:

Do not put yourself in a position where the RO even 'thinks' you might be doing something wrong. Yes ultimately I was 'not guilty' but the fact is I put myself in a position where what I was doing looked bad. Couple that with the fact I was a new shooter so my movements were not confident and smooth and I can easily see where and how I was DQ.

I recently did the NROI course and RO'd a level 3 match. I have to say I really didn't like it. I would hate to be DQ'ing someone from a match, but I'm not being fair if I don't enforce the rules. Particularly when it comes to safety. I'm not sure how often I will do the RO thing again. On the one hand we need more volunteers and I like to give something back to a sport I love. On the other hand it's a difficult and fairly thankless task.

Anyway, I'm dying to know what this GM move is!!!

[Sarge]

After all this I want to know what was this "GM move" that you were practicing at home that is so close to the 180? you obviously knew it was close to 180 as you had your wife watch you perform this gm move and then ask her if you broke 180?

On the topic of DQ's I learned something very important in one of my first matches.

I was a production C grade shooter and for the first time felt I was shooting well and beating my fellow C graders. I was running first in C grade with just one more 50 point stage to come. I was super stoked to be so close to getting my first small victory. I won't tell the whole story but I was on a wonky bridge stage that had a railing. you had to engage low targets through ports in the front 'wall' of the bridge and I could best do that SHO holding the railing with WH for support. On the 3rd such port I came very close to sweeping my WH as I came back up from the port. RO (who is a friend of mine and GM) called STOP. DQ. I had a camera on and later watched the footage. There was no sweeping, BUT I can see how from where he was standing it would have looked close. since sweeping is a severe safety issue I can see why he called the DQ.

My lesson was this:

Do not put yourself in a position where the RO even 'thinks' you might be doing something wrong. Yes ultimately I was 'not guilty' but the fact is I put myself in a position where what I was doing looked bad. Couple that with the fact I was a new shooter so my movements were not confident and smooth and I can easily see where and how I was DQ.

I recently did the NROI course and RO'd a level 3 match. I have to say I really didn't like it. I would hate to be DQ'ing someone from a match, but I'm not being fair if I don't enforce the rules. Particularly when it comes to safety. I'm not sure how often I will do the RO thing again. On the one hand we need more volunteers and I like to give something back to a sport I love. On the other hand it's a difficult and fairly thankless task.

Anyway, I'm dying to know what this GM move is!!!

I enjoyed your post and I'm not being critical of your friend BUT he should not have DQED you for what he thinks you did. You made several excuses for him calling the DQ and you seem genuinely OK with it but if he was not in a position to see clearly what happened he should have never stopped you. It's not the shooters responsibility to make things easy for the RO to call.

[teros135]

I enjoyed your post and I'm not being critical of your friend BUT he should not have DQED you for what he thinks you did. You made several excuses for him calling the DQ and you seem genuinely OK with it but if he was not in a position to see clearly what happened he should have never stopped you. It's not the shooters responsibility to make things easy for the RO to call.

Actually, it wasn't stated that the RO "thought" he saw a sweep. He saw what he saw, and called the DQ. We can't adjudicate it again here. Also, head-mounted cameras don't always see it the way our eyes see it (because of placement), and in the heat of stage movement we can't pay direct attention to every part of our body.

Anyway, BeerBaron wasn't blaming his friend, and his advice to keep from getting anywhere near a 180 or sweep is helpful.

Sarge's advice is also helpful. An RO shouldn't call anything he/she isn't sure of. If you saw it, call it. If you're not sure you saw it, you can't call it. The arb will probably go to the shooter if the RO isn't sure. (If it seemed close, though, it would be helpful to the shooter to mention it after the run is finished, as a "heads-up".)

[striped1]

I tell new guys I meet at matches and students I teach that they shouldn't give the RO even a hint that they were close to the 180. If you are working with a self imposed 160 line, it makes it a lot harder for an RO to make a bad call. Professional refs and umpires make game changing bad calls, volunteer ROs are subject to the same mistakes, so I try to make their jobs easier if I can.

Totally agree! If you can run the stage to avoid a moving-left reload, it'll make the RO much more comfortable and less likely to call you for breaking the 180.

That being said, some stages just flow better toward a weak-hand reload. In that case, by all means, run it the most efficient way... Just be extremely cognizant of where your gun's pointing! Reloads moving toward your weak-hand are not impossible, they just take more awareness.

Yep. Found a 180 trap doing just that on Sunday. Changed my reload plan during run because of an extra shot and the barrel crossed my midline and was just over 180. No complaints, went home and mowed the lawn. And will be much more cognizant of the potential for it next time.

[motosapiens]

After all this I want to know what was this "GM move" that you were practicing at home that is so close to the 180? you obviously knew it was close to 180 as you had your wife watch you perform this gm move and then ask her if you broke 180?

On the topic of DQ's I learned something very important in one of my first matches.

I was a production C grade shooter and for the first time felt I was shooting well and beating my fellow C graders. I was running first in C grade with just one more 50 point stage to come. I was super stoked to be so close to getting my first small victory. I won't tell the whole story but I was on a wonky bridge stage that had a railing. you had to engage low targets through ports in the front 'wall' of the bridge and I could best do that SHO holding the railing with WH for support. On the 3rd such port I came very close to sweeping my WH as I came back up from the port. RO (who is a friend of mine and GM) called STOP. DQ. I had a camera on and later watched the footage. There was no sweeping, BUT I can see how from where he was standing it would have looked close. since sweeping is a severe safety issue I can see why he called the DQ.

My lesson was this:

Do not put yourself in a position where the RO even 'thinks' you might be doing something wrong. Yes ultimately I was 'not guilty' but the fact is I put myself in a position where what I was doing looked bad. Couple that with the fact I was a new shooter so my movements were not confident and smooth and I can easily see where and how I was DQ.

I recently did the NROI course and RO'd a level 3 match. I have to say I really didn't like it. I would hate to be DQ'ing someone from a match, but I'm not being fair if I don't enforce the rules. Particularly when it comes to safety. I'm not sure how often I will do the RO thing again. On the one hand we need more volunteers and I like to give something back to a sport I love. On the other hand it's a difficult and fairly thankless task.

Anyway, I'm dying to know what this GM move is!!!

I enjoyed your post and I'm not being critical of your friend BUT he should not have DQED you for what he thinks you did. You made several excuses for him calling the DQ and you seem genuinely OK with it but if he was not in a position to see clearly what happened he should have never stopped you. It's not the shooters responsibility to make things easy for the RO to call.

I agree with you sarge, but I also think that RO's are human, so I'd rather not put myself in a position where someone who is less diligent can make a mistake and dq me.

[Bkreutz]

I tell new guys I meet at matches and students I teach that they shouldn't give the RO even a hint that they were close to the 180. If you are working with a self imposed 160 line, it makes it a lot harder for an RO to make a bad call. Professional refs and umpires make game changing bad calls, volunteer ROs are subject to the same mistakes, so I try to make their jobs easier if I can.

Totally agree! If you can run the stage to avoid a moving-left reload, it'll make the RO much more comfortable and less likely to call you for breaking the 180.

That being said, some stages just flow better toward a weak-hand reload. In that case, by all means, run it the most efficient way... Just be extremely cognizant of where your gun's pointing! Reloads moving toward your weak-hand are not impossible, they just take more awareness.

Bit of a thread drift but live in the world of a left handed shooter for a bit. Almost every stage is designed to be run left to right. (whine mode off now).

I totally feel ya! That's why i always "complain" (tongue in cheek) when there's a stage that requires us to run it right to left and reload going left

Well, it sounds like we need more "left handed" RO's, CRO's, and MD's (this is also somewhat tongue in cheek, I've often looked at stages that favor "righties" and wondered why when some simple changes could have made it neutral). I'm a "righty" BTW

[Southpaw]

Yes we need more lefty friendly stages!

[sfchorn]

I had to reverse myself after a "STOP" call. Level I match, competitor moving left to right after shooting around the left side of a wall. His pistol got hung up on the edge of the wall, and I know in my heart from his body position that his muzzle broke the 90 degree median intercept. I was behind and slightly to the right of the competitor. As soon as I called "STOP", I knew I'd have to require a reshoot. Why? I couldn't see his muzzle from behind him. I "know" he broke the line from his body position, but I never actually saw the muzzle break the line. I can only call what I can see. Apologized to the competitor, explained what happened, reset the stage, and put him back into the shooting order.

I'd like to think I'm a decent RO, but sometimes we screw up.

[BeerBaron]

Sarge, I totally get where you're coming from, but for the sake of clarity I should explain a little.

The stage was shot with shooter up on a 20ft long 3ft wide platform suspended about 4ft off the ground on chains. The front was made of ply and came up about 4 ft with a railing on top. there were basically 4 shooting positions and each position had you engage 2 targets standing that were say 15meters down range and then 2 through ports cut in the ply front that were like 1meter right in front of the wonky bridge.

The RO cannot RO from on the bridge (his movement would disrupt the shooter).

He was in the best position he could be which was behind and slightly to my right (I'm right handed).

From where he stood it clearly looked like I swept my self. From the video (directly above POV) you can see gun and hand pass close to each other but WH does not get in front of the muzzle. It's pretty close though. We're talking 2-3inches. It wasn't that he 'thought' I might have swept myself, I'm confident he was 'sure' that I did. But it's the perspective/angle that makes this a tricky one.

Another RO who was observing among the squad also called it.

As a test I tried holding my right hand in a 'finger gun' type position and my left hand 3 inches to the left but level or just behind the 'muzzle' (end of my index finger). standing 1 meter behind and 2 meters to the left it appears my thumb on my WH is in front of my index finger even though it is not (yes I did not stand behind myself, I had my wife do this and I observed her, and had her observe me do it too).

Bear in mind sweeping is a safety call. Also bear in mind I was a new shooter (and we know new shooters do dumb and unpredictable things during pressure at matches). He knew that. What he saw, to him, was 100% sweeping. There was no possibility for him to have any better vantage point on that stage. I am certain that in his mind he was sure of what he saw. Angles, and perception are funny things.

I still believe it was my fault. Given the stage design I should have been conscious of the sweeping danger and exaggerated the separation of WH and pistol.

I guess my point was to be wary of potential DQ traps. The RO can only call what he 'sees' but due to angles, perspective and the fact that the RO is always (or should be) behind or at best beside the shooter it limits what he can see.

I was devastated by the DQ (was an away match too, 9hr drive, 2 day match). But I put my pistol away and helped patch and brass that stage and the final one.

What we had there was a confluence of factors:

a stage that limited where the RO can be to observe

A new shooter a little unsure of his movement and not 100% cognizant of the potential sweeping 'trap'

a wonky bridge (my first time every shooting on one)

just bad luck! and bad movement on my part.

At the end of the day he's a top guy and top RO. He made the call that was correct.

An RO's first responsibility is always safety. everything else including the rules comes after that. What he 'saw' was an unsafe act that could potentially cause me harm. He stopped me out of consideration for my safety. Of that I am certain.

[tbarker13]

I generally try to point out a "dead man line" to shooters when targets are visible that could get them in trouble. Problem is WE ALL forget where things like that are when the beeper beeps

Love hearing this.

I get frustrated at matches when I run across an RO who gets cagey when asked to clarify the 180 on a particular target from a particular position.

Happened most recently at a small major. Squad was trying to get a better handle on the 180 for a target at the start of the stage.

It took way too much effort on our end to get more than: "Just don't break the 180 and you'll be fine."

Makes me really appreciate the ROs who are confident enough to help a squad understand what is and isn't a safe shooting position.

When asked about the 180 on a target, I will always say if it is down range of the position asked about. I Will Not say "your fine shooting it from there" or "you won't be breaking the 180 there". I've seen the argument erupt after a run when the competitor gets DQed and says you said it was ok from here! When in actuality the shooter over swung the target and broke the 180.

Targets are either up or down range from any location, and that is not the same as where you point your gun.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

This is certainly true. But, there are times when target placement (particularly on stages not lined up with the back of the berm) makes it more challenging to know where that critical 180 line is located. I'm sure we've all witnessed enough debates and disagreements over 180 lines during walkthroughs to know that the answer to the question is not always easy to determine.

But in the end, the only opinions that matter are those of the ROs watching the shooter.

And so I appreciate the ROs that do everything they can to help shooters safely navigate these tricky stages.

Personally, I rarely push the 180, believing strongly in the idea that its better to avoid getting into a position where the RO thinks you've broken the line.

[motosapiens]

Bear in mind sweeping is a safety call. Also bear in mind I was a new shooter (and we know new shooters do dumb and unpredictable things during pressure at matches). He knew that. What he saw, to him, was 100% sweeping. There was no possibility for him to have any better vantage point on that stage. I am certain that in his mind he was sure of what he saw. Angles, and perception are funny things.

so you're saying an RO was 100% sure of something, but was wrong, and you think that's ok?

I don't. Maybe it's just my math background, but 100% sure should not include the possibility of being wrong.

[Darqusoull13]

One minor note to add on this topic as it has been brought up previously and applies in this situation. IF the RO's indicate to you to be careful about a specific position to not break the 180 and that they will be looking specifically for this, ask yourself if going home is really worth the 1/2 second you save by attempting something you may or may not be able to pull off. This particular shooting position was tight. Most shooters chose to skip it and take a less aggressive (safer) game plan. Some shooters pulled off the tight position. It was a left-handed friendly position that one or two wrong-handers had less issue entering and exiting. A couple of right handed shooters went home, by their own choice.

As a shooter, I don't argue DQ calls. I've only had 1 DQ and I knew damn well I did bad. If I get a bad call down the line, I'll do the same thing I did before, shake the RO's hand, say thank you for keeping me safe, and stay to help my squad reset. As an RO, I hate sending someone home. It sucks and I never want to do it but anyone can make a mistake. Some shooters will argue nearly every call except a maybe dropped gun.