Match today, Interesting find after the match

[jtrump]

Long story short... my Gunsmith had me squad with a master shooter he knows well since this was my 4th match I could learn a few things and talk with him etc. After the very first stage he's like what reloads are you using? I explained I was using a 180g Bayou bullet with 4.8g of w231 1.180 OAL, making 167.7PF..

He said, your gun is bouncing all over the place, do me a favor and after the match let me shoot it.

The match ends, and we walk down to the berm, he puts 3 rounds into the dirt and says Jesus you're shooting a hand cannon.... He yells out "hey Dusty", bring me some of you're .40 loads

180g bayou with 5.0g of Silhouette behind it, It's making 169PF and it literally felt like a bunny fart load compared to my loads... I pull the trigger and the sights hardly even moved at all!!!!

I'm dumbfounded (%*$%$*($W%*(W$%*($%$ What a difference that would make when trying to shoot fast and still actually be able to see the sights!

I've used the search feature, "Promise" but has anyone else had a good result with Silhouette?? I can't believe the difference in recoil, some people say placebo, or that others have a different feel of recoil impulse, but legitimately this feels 2x as soft as my load.

Maybe you can see the gun bouncing around in this video, I'm an experienced shooter but new to competition. "well I uploaded the video to youtube and it's not getting HD"

If you search for Jonathan Trumpower on Facebook is public, I have a few stages uploaded on there from the gopro test today so You can see the recoil Impulse I'm getting.

Edited February 21, 2016 by jtrump

[jcc7x7]

Sil. 320, WST all soft shooting

I like BE in my 38 for wadcutter loads but not for anything that has to have power factor.

It's nice to shoot with people who want to help and ACTUALLY have the knowledge to do so.

Buy him a 1000 primers or at least a beer after the shoot, sounds like he deserves it for the help he gave

[jtrump]

I've already looked up the loading data from Ramshot, anyone have some .40 loads for a 180g lead bullet, I'll start low and work up as usual they only data they had listed for bullet type was LC and TC, so I'm running bayou bullets I guess that fits into the LC category,

Agreed JCC, gonna have to give the guy something, he's even offered to help me out I'm determined to go up quick!

[remoandiris]

Interesting. 231 has the same burn rate as Titegroup.

[jtrump]

Titegroup is actually a little faster, 231/hp38 feels great in my Single stack gun, but in the full size limited gun with 21 rounds in it, damn thing kicks like a mule.

[Garmil]

Most here would tell you the 231 would likely be the "softer" feeling load than silhouette due to the faster burn rate. If silhouette feels better to you though run it.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Jesus you're shooting a hand cannon....

I can't believe the difference in recoil, some people say placebo,

Two thoughts:

1. Placebo - mgmt. once did a study and installed brighter lights in the factory and production increased. Then they discovered they had actually

lowered (dimmed) the lights - but production still increased. Turns out the attention increased production and not the lights

2. Your old loads with WW231 (which is a great, fast powder) were actually loaded hotter than you think (>170 PF).

I'd re-chrono your old loads, and have a friend hand you your gun loaded with alternatively each load - but YOU don't know which is which. (Blind Test).

[jtrump]

Hey Jack,

We were pretty meticulous when coming up with the right load for my gun in .40 major, started at 4.4g 870FPS avg, 4.6g 900 avg, 4.8g 932fps @ 180g = 167.7PF The comment was even made during the chrono session that they felt hot.

I'm loading on a dillion 550 that is new, when I did my test loads I literally adjusted that little screw 20 times to get it as close to possible for it to throw the exact grain, it seems 15fps per grain of powder seemed very consistent.

I understand the theory and the rationalization behind the saying if you have a heavy bullet and a fast burning powder perceived recoil should be less noticeable, and I read into it and to me it makes sense.

This though was not placebo, I've shot some of my smith's reloads and his didn't feel any different than mine yet we made the exact same power factor on the exact same chrono session with the same bullet weight, and to me his felt exactly like mine. The loads I shot from the guy at the range felt like butter

3. This guy had some really loaded down ammo for a local match knowing there would be no chorno and I'm going to switch powders for nothing... ughhh I guess buying 1lb of it and just testing it for myself isn't going to be a major issue, only problem is I just bought that 8lb keg of hp38/ww231 ;(

Edited February 21, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

Most here would tell you the 231 would likely be the "softer" feeling load than silhouette due to the faster burn rate. If silhouette feels better to you though run it.

I agree,, If I could make major and have the gun feel like that Jesus... I could shoot so much faster 1/2 the felt recoil compaired to my re-loads is what it felt like, more of a push and not much muzzle rise at all with a 12lb varriable wolff spring.

[mont1120]

Without a chrono, there is no way to really judge what is major and what is not. The type of bullet, while the same in your posts, could also play a factor in a variation of thickness. I look at reloading as a sometime mysterious venture, recently two loads I have used consistently in .40 all of a sudden would not cycle my XDm 5.25. No discernible reason why, the charge is the same, bullet the same, so some odd variation in the powder is the only explanation I can find.

Again, check the actual velocity, I am surprised at the huge difference in the recoil, 231 is not known for that. A bit dirty perhaps, but not a hand battering powder, and not at 169 PF.

[Sandbagger123]

i would question if that Silluette load even made power factor.

[jtrump]

I'll re-check the 231 loads on the chrono as soon as I get a chance, I've heard it was somewhat temperature sensitive when we tested it was 52 degrees, and Yesterday here in Florida during match time it was in the mid to high 60's, sunny and felt hot.

[jtrump]

i would question if that Silluette load even made power factor.

Well I do question that, The guy has been around for along time and is a high A shooter in limited maybe get bumped to master soon, he can make a game plan and has been to many match's that require a chrono, I would hate to believe he would dummy down rounds for local match's just for the slight advantage it's not like were winning anything it's more of practice than anything else.

[Sandbagger123]

i would question if that Silluette load even made power factor.

Well I do question that, The guy has been around for along time and is a high A shooter in limited maybe get bumped to master soon, he can make a game plan and has been to many match's that require a chrono, I would hate to believe he would dummy down rounds for local match's just for the slight advantage it's not like were winning anything it's more of practice than anything else.

i have tried many combos of loads over the years with all kinds of powders and bullets out of my 3 limited guns and my gut feeling is that load would probably not make it . of course the only way to be sure is to chrono it.

on the other point i will tell you a story. We had a great shooter at a match with chrono. mD went around doing surprise ammo pickups. he grabbed ammo that was being use on that stage. that shooters ammo did not make it. way under. the guy instead of finishing the match packed up and left. he knew he got caught.

sometimes people want to win no matter local match or big match so badly it blurs their thinking

Edited February 21, 2016 by Sandbagger123

[magpulled]

The recoil doesn't really look any snappier than my .40 honestly, but for me it's hard to tell without looking down the gun and seeing the sights. I had to mess with the recoil spring when I started shooting .40 because it felt like a cannon coming over from production.

[jtrump]

Yea I could see how that would be hard to judge not being able to see the front sight, But the GM that shot my limited gun with my loads said Jesus son this load is Stout..

The funny part is, I'm making 167.7pf with only 4.8g w231 1.180 OAL, most people are having to load more powder than that and am surprised I even made major with 4.8g of 231.

Soooo.. I'm going to try to find a lb of Silhouette locally and chrono some loads this week and then do a blind test and actually see if it really does feel better to me, or if that other guys loads were bunk. I will also blind test it so I don't know which bullets I am shooting to not skew the results I will report back hoping I can find a 1lb locally.

Edited February 22, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

Whelp, I believe The culprit has been discovered. So I hustled around and found a lb of silhouette made up a few loads and went to chrono them, at 5.2g I was getting 820fps with a 180g bayou bullet.....

Previously I've been loading 180g bayou over 4.8g of W231 and getting 167.7PF, "939fps avg" but it feels snappy to me and others..... So As mentioned in the heading of this thread I shot a guys reloads bayou bullets using silhouette and it felt like half the recoil of my gun..

Now the loads I made today were making 147.6PF with 5.2g Silhouette and felt just as made at my w231 loads recoil wise... I would need another .5/.6 grains of silhouette to even think about making major. To me this tells me that the guy shooting those loads was not making major and basically flat out cheating, good for him.

Am I chasing a unicorn?? I'm trying to develop the best load possible for my 180g bayou bullets... There are so many mixed reports on what people like and or perceive.. Obviously I want a reload that's as soft as shooting as possible yet the gun doesn't run like a slug with good accuracy.

So far I've tried

180g Bayou over 4.8g w231 167.7PF " feels pretty harsh and others agree"

170g black bullet 4.9g universal clays " feels pretty much exactly the same as my 231 loads'

180g Bayou over 5.2g silhouette 146PF, Feels just as bad as my major loads of 231..

I'm starting to get slightly frustrated ;(

[kneelingatlas]

Why did you drop the bullet weight with the Universal Clays load?

I like Clays (not Universal, not International), Solo 1000, I have a friend who loves E3 (which shoots awesomely soft), and a lot of Limited shooters love Titegroup.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I believe, from reading these posts here at BE, that N320 is The Powder to try,

but doubt it's That Much Better than WW231 ... I may be wrong.

[Nickb45]

I shoot a 180 grain bayou with 4.7 grains of TG and come in at 172 (6" kart barrel). My buddy is using 4.8 of TG with a 180 grain X-treme and coming in right at 172 as well (5" edge".

These feels extremely soft to me, our group has 3 6" bushing barrel guns and 5" edge, all with PT steel grips, I'm coming from shooting SS using a 200 grain bayou and 4.7 grains of WST.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited February 23, 2016 by Nickb45

[jtrump]

Well I just picked up some TG and WST, I'm about to finish the load of silhouette just to make major with it on the chorno and see how it feels but I don't think I will like it. Also having a little issue with the last batch of bullets I got, the tail end is mic'ing around .403, that's a lot of extra material to be pushing down a .40 barrel.

Anyway I'm going to try the TG/wst/silhouette loads and chorono them tomorrow, will report back with results.

Kneel, the 170's were some of the bullets my smith brought over to check and see what the deal was with my bullets. They are not symmetrical, in this particular batch there is more material on one side of the bullet than the other, getting alot of .402's, and .403's and as large as .404's. Bayou is sending me a new batch priority, good customer service.

Notice in the picture you can see which side of the bullet had the excess material and was either A. Not sized at all, or B. Not sized correctly.

[Sandbagger123]

go with 4.9 to 5.0 of WST @1.18 and you should get about 940 to 950 for that depending on your guns barrel. WST is great for coated

[jtrump]

Chrono Results are in for this morning.. Spent last night working up loads:

Temp 72'

Overcast

Gun- 2011 STI DVC Limited

Dillion-550 press

All loads are 180g Bayou bullets, 1.180 OAL, fully resized brass "mixed", .421 crimp, federal primers, 12lb variable spring

Silhouette: To continue my search for the load from my first post in this topic I loaded 10 rounds of silhouette to 5.6g- 10 shot average 881FPS::: 159PF and not recoil friendly.

WST: 4.8g Average 1007fps:::: 181.2PF single digit SD- Little rowdy but almost 100fps over making major.

WST: 5.0g Average 1016fps:::: 182.88PF Also single digit SD- expected it to be a little rowdy, however these loads feel similar to my hp38/231 loads.

Titegroup: 4.2g Average: 944fps::::: 169.92PF, SD 8- I liked this... The recoil impulse is over so fast that you're body can't even realize it happened, very cool and good feel.

Titegroup: 4.4g Average: 960fps::::: 172.1 PF, SD 9- This load also felt fine with slightly louder report.

Titegroup: 4.6g Average: 994fps::::: 179.0 PF- SD 7- Little bit rowdy at that velocity still the same quick impulse.

Re-Chrono'd my load I've used in the past two matches

W231 4.6g Average: 921fps:::: 165.7PF- "edit SD 14" Just as rowdy as ever, felt like the wst at over 1000fps.

In all I'm somewhat surprised at the outcome.. I did not expect to hit major with the starting load of titegroup, and I did not expect to be so high with WST.

I was meticulous in getting each load to exactly the perfect measurement, and I even checked my scale to make sure it wasn't the culprit.

Edited February 24, 2016 by jtrump

[jtrump]

Also, I was just given 1000 rounds of D&J 200G FMJ's to play with..

Anyone have an experience running titegroup and wst our of a 2011 style pistol? As far as reloading data goes, So far they are my favorite powder's, I can imagine I would like wst even more when it was about a 168PF.

For some reason, My barrel seems to run things fast... I'm not exactly sure why or If I am mistaken but others seem to have different reports for various powders.

[Sandbagger123]

Do you have a beam scale to cross check the electronic one? one thing i have leaned is that the inexpensive digital consumer scales are not always accurate. i have 2 beam scales i use to check my loads.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Sandbagger123