What causes flyers?

[IDescribe]

I'm running 147 Blues with 3.0 TG and no issues.

And I could shoot your pistol with your loads and have issues that you don't because we look at things differently or have different standards on what qualifies as an "issue". One person's excellent accuracy is another person's inaccurate. One person's non-issue is another person's unacceptable pain in the butt. One person's barrel is their barrel and their barrel alone, so even if I had no issue with your loads in your barrel, it doesn't mean it's the same for me or anyone else's pistol. You're not having issues with Blue, but I do in both of my 9mm CZ pistols, and no cast bullet guru is going to tell you that .355 is the best choice for 9mm Luger in cast bullets.

In any case, I'm pretty sure I remember Rowdy in a thread around a year ago regarding IDPA's ruling on the AccuShadow and discussion of the Shadow Target, and I'm pretty sure he at least used to shoot a CZ. If he's still shooting a CZ, AND he's shooting Blue Bullets, knowledge of my identical issue with CZ and Blue Bullets might be of use to him. That's not to say he can't fix it and stay with the same bullet, but it still might help for him to be aware of someone else's similar issue. And it might be that switching to another manufacture of bullet might make his problems go away immediately. And my issue was with both 124 and 147 Blues, so it wasn't just a bad batch.

[jmtyndall]

I would bet my life on it not being me. That said, what are the things that I might be doing in the loading process that would cause a flyer?

So positive, yet unwilling to test the variables.

Shooter.

Gun.

Ammo.

If you're positive it's not shooter. Then test other ammo in the gun. Eliminate the gun as a suspect, or prove the gun is the issue.

Shoot the ammo in another gun. Eliminate the ammo as a suspect, or prove the ammo is the issue.

The concept is simple. Change one thing at a time until you find the issue

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[pjb45]

I have a BHP. They are famous for flyers. Bill at C&S took the gun to Irv at Bar-Sto and fitted the barrel there. NO FLYERS.

In the case of BHP it was all about fitting the barrel. WWbox was the ammo used in the tests.

So if you are getting flyers at 10 yards with good ammo and your sure it isn't you, I would suggest it is a gun issue or your handloads.

Edited February 5, 2016 by pjb45

[boatdoc]

I understand what you're saying and leaving the human element out of it. It could be anything that will effect bullet shape ie.. case didn't bell properly and caused a shaved edge, air or contamination in the bullet casting, deformed ogive, everything that rotates will vibrate, you just change when and how much.

Given the rpm of a bullet leaving the barrel it's amazing they don't disintegrate.

[9x45]

Without changing either charge weight or OAL from my Bayous,

So let me get this straight; you ordered a different manufactures bullet, and loaded it up to your previous manufacturers specs?

Yes, that's correct, because bullet makers don't give load data, powder makers do. I got the Blue Berry bullets for free, so all I did was drop them into my existing set up, (normally 124 Bayou TC's on top of 4.3 grains of TiteGroup at 1.100" OAL). The Blue Berry's OAL came out to 1.130" because of the bullet shape, that's all. They case gaged fine and plunk (chamber) tested fine. The charge weight and OAL is within Hodgdon's published data. I have run over 20,000 Bayous and Montana Gold 125 JHP's with excellent accuracy, and before coated bullets, I had well over 150,000 Bear Creek and Precision Delta moly bullets alone with good results, but not the Blue Berries. This is the only bullet I have shot, going back to 1992, that was not consistent, and that includes hard cast lead, FMJ's of all brands, both closed and open backs, premium PD bullets, etc, overall more than 250,000 rounds thru my 9mm Glocks. They run slightly better in OEM barrels, but not near as good thru my BarSto barrels. In fact, when I chrono'd it, I found small flecks of copper plating on the table.

Edited February 9, 2016 by 9x45

[9x45]

I would bet my life on it not being me. That said, what are the things that I might be doing in the loading process that would cause a flyer?

So positive, yet unwilling to test the variables.

Shooter.

Gun.

Ammo.

If you're positive it's not shooter. Then test other ammo in the gun. Eliminate the gun as a suspect, or prove the gun is the issue.

Shoot the ammo in another gun. Eliminate the ammo as a suspect, or prove the ammo is the issue.

The concept is simple. Change one thing at a time until you find the issue

Rowdy didn't start shooting yesterday, look at his rankings. And we shot last Saturdays USPSA match, he kicked my ass as usual, now he is a little younger and moves allot quicker. There is something more subtle going on here than newbie re-loader/shooter issues. lt's going to boil down to slugging the the CZ's barrel to know that number, then measuring bullet OD and weighing each bullet, getting same head stamp brass, individual weighing each charge, normally a Dillon progressive will throw +/- .1 grains, but it depends on of the powder, corn flake powders can throw +/- .3 grains, and checking each loaded round OAL, then testing. His setup is yielding 90% good results (assumes 3 flyers out of 30), so it is probably a combination of bullet and charge weight, which puts it right at the edge of where it likes to be. The gun and the shooter haven't changed.

Edited February 9, 2016 by 9x45

[9x45]

Off subject, but FYI. Rowdy had a case separation from a AmmoLoad, IMT, or Freedom Munition case. What happens is the bullet fires ok, the back end of the case is ejected, but the thinner sleeve in front is jammed into the chamber. It leaves you with a dead gun. These cases have a step in them which is what separates.

[TJART]

I would bet my life on it not being me. That said, what are the things that I might be doing in the loading process that would cause a flyer?

So positive, yet unwilling to test the variables.

Shooter.

Gun.

Ammo.

If you're positive it's not shooter. Then test other ammo in the gun. Eliminate the gun as a suspect, or prove the gun is the issue.

Shoot the ammo in another gun. Eliminate the ammo as a suspect, or prove the ammo is the issue.

The concept is simple. Change one thing at a time until you find the issue

Rowdy didn't start shooting yesterday, look at his rankings. And we shot last Saturdays USPSA match, he kicked my ass as usual, now he is a little younger and moves allot quicker. There is something more subtle going on here than newbie re-loader/shooter issues. lt's going to boil down to slugging the the CZ's barrel to know that number, then measuring bullet OD and weighing each bullet, getting same head stamp brass, individual weighing each charge, normally a Dillon progressive will throw +/- .1 grains, but it depends on of the powder, corn flake powders can throw +/- .3 grains, and checking each loaded round OAL, then testing. His setup is yielding 90% good results (assumes 3 flyers out of 30), so it is probably a combination of bullet and charge weight, which puts it right at the edge of where it likes to be. The gun and the shooter haven't changed.

Last Saturday, where? Not at Pala...

[Bkreutz]

I blame miniature black holes. Every once in a while I get a mike that just shouldn't be (too close, all the other shots in a tight group) I'd like to think they were perfect doubles but I have a hard time convincing the RO (imagine that ) So I came up with the miniature black hole concept. It forms at random times and just eats the bullet on it's way to the target. I've stopped worrying about them since I realized that cosmic forces are involved.

[IDescribe]

So it is Blues, which are undersized at .355. And it is a land&groove CZ. Switch to ACME, Bayou, or BBI, and I bet the problem goes away.

[9x45]

Last Saturday, where? Not at Pala...

No, at Norco.

[9x45]

So it is Blues, which are undersized at .355. And it is a land&groove CZ. Switch to ACME, Bayou, or BBI, and I bet the problem goes away.

That's what I experienced with Blue Berries bullets, a little small and throw flyers out of my BarSto barreled G17s. Hi-Tek coated Bayou's and Black and Blue bullets run fine. Plus I get local delivery on the Black and Blues.

http://www.blackandbluebullets.com/

Edited February 10, 2016 by 9x45

[bronson630]

If it is a CZ slug your barrel. My CZ barrels were .3555 which requires a bigger Bullet.

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[IDescribe]

@9x45 -- I assume your Barsto is land & groove? You said your stock barrel which is polygonal ran the blues fine. I really think this is an issue of the Blues being right at the border diameter-wise for land and groove rifling, but the polygonal barrels are running them okay. I have two 9mm polygonal and two 9mm land and groove. The Blues are inconsistent in my land and groove.

[9x45]

IDescribe, agree, right at the edge for rifled barrels.

[tenclip]

Assuming the ammo is identical in every way and the barrel must be fired while inside the slide, the only way to get any kind of accurate group to the point that a flyer can be reasonably isolated, will be with a clamped down pistol, the barrel cleaned before every shot, and then only shot when the barrel is cooled to the same temperature each time. Without this, you are talking about expanding gas that is pushing a high friction projectile down irregular surfaced tighter ID tube with a coefficient of kinetic friction that is changing (getting dirty) with each shot and while the barrel temperature is rapidly changing. Without that level of measure and removal of human influence, technically most every shot is a "flyer" and maybe only one of those in that group of ten is where it should be.

[IDescribe]

Tenclip, that's just not a practical explanation. I'm confident that you have some internal definition of flyer for which your explanation of how to properly identify an actual flyer is necessarily accurate, but in practice that's just not the case.

When someone can print a sub 2-inch group at 25 yards all day long with one cartridge, and then with a second cartridge produce pretty well the same sub 2-inch group, except that one out of ten rounds prints 4 inches from the edge of the primary group, that bullet printing 4 inches away is a flyer. And while it might not fit YOUR definition of a flyer, that is how it was used in the original question. Welcome to forums.

Edited February 11, 2016 by IDescribe

[Rangerdug]

What causes flyers? Specifically in a coated bullet. I know in the past if I had a lot of weird hits with plated bullets my crimp was probably way off. But is it the same deal with moly/coated bullets?

Example, shooting 30 rounds at 10 yards, slow fire, single action. My group will be 2-3" and then I'll have an uncalled hit like 4" away randomly.

If you want/need specifics of my load to help diagnose it I can share, but more interested in the concept of what causes flyers. Crimp? Bullet manufacture qa/qc? Low powder charge? Torn coating?....??

I can't say, I know the process that coated bullets are made; However, I seen this phenomenon occur with regularity with frangible ammunition. I would imagine that during the manufacturing process they are not able to balance the projectile.

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[9x45]

Tenclip, we're talking about a pistol at 20 yards, not a rifle at 600 yards. It's grip it and rip it, not breath and squeeze, typically 28 rounds on USPSA stages. For the game, 2" at 25 yards is perfectly acceptable. I recently threw a triple on a classifier, 3 touching at 10 yards with my OEM G31, Trijicon night sights, running Montana Gold 125 grain JHPs on top of 8 grains of BE-86 going about 1,400 fps. While it may look like a flyer, it's not, because I cannot see holes at that distance plus it was a transition from target to target which is a flash sight picture. And this was the last stage of the match, after 175 rounds or so.

The bullet is just a cast bullet, and the Hi-Tek coating is dipped and then cured for 10 minutes at 400 degrees F. I have shot over 20K of them, measure and weight handful out of each new order of 5K and they are very uniform. The only difference I saw between the several brands I tried was the smell, some of these are like being inside of a welding shop (Ozone). And that's out of both my OEM G17s and my hand fitted BarSto barreled G17s. I load 125 TC Bayous on top of 4.3 grs of TiteGroup at 1.100" and they go about 1,200 fps for a 150 floor. However that is not everyone's experience, and maybe CZ's are not as happy with coated versus FMJ bullets. Maybe hear from some CZ hosers. It could be that coated bullets running right at the floor, or near it, say 130 aren't as happy as they could be a higher velocity, but then its a trade off between accuracy and recoil. Lots of the local hosers have started running 160 grain 9mms, you can watch them go down range...

Edited February 11, 2016 by 9x45

[tenclip]

Thanks 9x and ID for the info and welcome! I was just offering some data learned from testing on my end, and to offer a perspective different than merely projectile and human. Projectile and machine being consistently/conditionally measurable of course and human being the least measurable factor of the equation.

I am learning a lot with these threads and really appreciate the knowledge everyone shares.

[d_striker]

Off subject, but FYI. Rowdy had a case separation from a AmmoLoad, IMT, or Freedom Munition case. What happens is the bullet fires ok, the back end of the case is ejected, but the thinner sleeve in front is jammed into the chamber. It leaves you with a dead gun. These cases have a step in them which is what separates.

That stuff is garbage. And there are still people on here that insist it's fine to load 9 minor with. It's not a matter of if it happens, but when it happens with this brass.

[Gcarr]

I have tried various coated bullets ( bought and home made) in 3 different CZs. I finally gave up on them. Slugged all the barrels at .356+... Sized the coated out to .358... Tried different crimps, brass, and oal. My conclusion... The coating thickness variations caused sizing to not leave enough bullet bite in the rifling to get any kind of accuracy. But... That's just my option... I now shoot lubed 130gn at .358 ... I am very happy with the results

[mro111lland]

I had this exact same isue with plated bullets. When i switched to jhp porblem solved its a bullet problem not a shooter problem shoot jacked bullets from a major manufactuer no more problems

[FlashAndPoof]

4" Away at 10 yards? That's quite a difference... is it going in the same direction each time you get a flyer? Wondering if you've got a subconscious flinch or trigger slap?

[Rob1125]

Try shooting a group with burning the first hand cycled round into the berm. If you still get the flyer, you can start looking at the ammo. If the flyer goes away, it probably has something to do with barrel fit.