nitrohuck Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 With all this talk of Pistol Caliber Carbine potentially being introduced, I wanted to pick some brains as to what the best options out there are when it comes to buying a .40cal upper? I've never really even thought about a PCC, so I am starting from scratch here. Anyone else here have any experience with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I'm in the process of putting one together in 9mm. Kinda always wanted one and maybe will get a chance to shoot it in SC then see where this goes. Just curious, why .40? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrohuck Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) I already shoot and reload .40sw for limited (and if I were to ever play around in Prod I'd shoot 40 minor) Reloading 9mm and .40sw at the same time is a pain, tons of brass getting into the wrong boxes, etc. etc. I prefer to keep it simple, I used to swap between 9mm, 40sw and 300blk on my Dillon, reducing that to 2 calibers made life a lot easier. Edited December 13, 2015 by nitrohuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Ah copy. I thought maybe you were hoping there would be major PF in PCC. I shoot a lot of .40 as well, but also shoot quite a bit of 9mm. I've been researching parts for 9mm and learned there were a few differences between pistol caliber ARs and standard .223/5.56. Mostly having to do with the buffer weight and length of the buffer that some people say you need for blow-back action. Seems like there has been more experimenting with 9mm ARs than .40, so more 9mm info to find on the 'net. The rest seems pretty vanilla: caliber specific bolt (most recommend ramped), barrel, handguard, maybe a muzzle device... no gas tube. Some of the uppers I've seen vary between having a case deflector, others do not. Quarter Circle 10, Model1 Sales, 9mmAR, or Palmetto State Armoury are some websites I've been perusing a lot lately. I'm sure there are others. But I'm only just getting into it right now. Got my lower together today, waiting on parts for the upper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 I have a just right carbine in .40 that I modified. I removed the short hand guard and installed a 13 inch hand guard. The muzzle is threaded, so I attached a lone wolf brake. It takes glock mags and is pretty accurate out to 125 yds, maybe a little more, but drops pretty quick after that. The only time it malfunctions is usually if I'm not shouldering it properly(think like limpwristing a pistol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Takedown on the JR carbine is a little bit of a pain though. I tried to install a CMC trigger in mine but it wouldn't work with the bolt. So instead I just put some yellow JP springs in and it's good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBamBoo Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 These folks turn out some good .40 ( as well as 9mm, .45, .357 Sig) AR's and parts: https://www.quartercircle10.com/product-category/qcircle10-products/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 You can compete in IPSC rifle with a pistol caliber carbine as long as you meet the power factor of 150, which shouldn't be a problem with a 9 mm AR. I don't see the point of introducing an own pistol caliber carbine division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) You can compete in IPSC rifle with a pistol caliber carbine as long as you meet the power factor of 150, which shouldn't be a problem with a 9 mm AR. I don't see the point of introducing an own pistol caliber carbine division? IPSC is not USPSA... there are VERY few IPSC matches held here in the USA. Those that are require the use of IPSC ("Classic") targets only. Most matches here are run under USPSA rules with Metric targets. There are also very few rifle-only matches run under USPSA rules. Those few are designed to be shot with a rifle caliber, and pistol caliber carbines are not competitive. Shooting close-range steel with a carbine is more fun than a barrel full of monkeys. We can't do that with rifle calibers due to safety concerns. There are very few clubs where there are sufficient PCC shooters to justify running a dedicated PCC-only match, so the only opportunities are going to come from piggybacking them on existing pistol matches. The whole point of this initiative is to create more carbine shooting opportunities without having to create new matches. PCCs are a natural fit for for USPSA, with a very low barrier to entry; folks would simply have the option of shooting in a regular pistol match with their carbine. If it is scored as a separate division, I am not seeing the problem. USPSA was cold-tar-slow to take 3-Gun seriously, and they missed the boat. With the AR15 platform being likely the most popular gun in America right now, this is a second chance for USPSA to get into this market. It would be a pity if a pistol-centric mindset led them to miss the boat a second time. Edited December 13, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Xalpha Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) In Norway too we've had rifle shooters attend pistol matches, but with pistol caliber rifles only. They are scored as a separate rifle match however. I see your point, I'm just worried that too many divisions water out the sport, but it would be cool to see an evaluation. As for a pure rifle match, I think a pistol caliber is competitive on short range, but I see that it would lack at the longer distance (over 200 m?). Whats the problem of the IPSC target? Why do you americans keep holding on the the metric stuff, hehe? Edited December 13, 2015 by 2Xalpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 In Norway too we've had rifle shooters attend pistol matches, but with pistol caliber rifles only. They are scored as a separate rifle match however. I see your point, I'm just worried that too many divisions water out the sport, but it would be cool to see an evaluation. As for a pure rifle match, I think a pistol caliber is competitive on short range, but I see that it would lack at the longer distance (over 200 m?). Whats the problem of the IPSC target? Why do you americans keep holding on the the metric stuff, hehe? The upper A/B zones are added incentives to risk, whose elimination for the sake of sanitizing the sport is not necessary at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 SIG MPX should be available in .40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 In Norway too we've had rifle shooters attend pistol matches, but with pistol caliber rifles only. They are scored as a separate rifle match however. I see your point, I'm just worried that too many divisions water out the sport, but it would be cool to see an evaluation. As for a pure rifle match, I think a pistol caliber is competitive on short range, but I see that it would lack at the longer distance (over 200 m?). Whats the problem of the IPSC target? Why do you americans keep holding on the the metric stuff, hehe? There is no such thing as an "IPSC" target in USPSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 OK, so I've seen a few posts on here about PCC being added as a division to USPSA, but is there any real talk at HQ about it? I agree that it would be a big draw to many of the 3gunners who've already left us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 OK, so I've seen a few posts on here about PCC being added as a division to USPSA, but is there any real talk at HQ about it? I agree that it would be a big draw to many of the 3gunners who've already left us. The real talk at HQ is for Steel Challenge. We are getting PCC in 2016. Who knows if USPSA will follow suit. My guess is they will, eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hey Zack, I understand you had some input with drafting the proposed PCC equipment guidelines. Any chance you can give us a hint of the highlights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hey Zack, I understand you had some input with drafting the proposed PCC equipment guidelines. Any chance you can give us a hint of the highlights? Sure. Troy sent me a rough outline for PCC which I then drafted into a proposed appendix for the steel challenge rule book. What I submitted read as follows (Of course I have no idea if it'll be changed so consider this a very rough first draft) Also please keep in mind this is the proposal for steel challenge only. Minimum Barrel Length - None. (The original outline stated 16" but I think SBR folks want to play so why not include them). Accepted calibers - 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP Minimum velocity - none Maximum velocity - 1600 FPS Magazine Capacity Limit - None Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes Sling use authorized - yes Optical sight/electronic sights permitted - open carbines only Compensators permitted - open carbines only Muzzle Brake - Left this one blank as Troy said he was going to use some multigun rule verbiage. Start Position - Low ready pointed at aiming cone, safety off, finger off of trigger but may be inside trigger guard If you guys see anything I left out please let me know. Like I said this is a first draft so there's no telling what's going to stay and what's going to change/be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 "Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes" Why include this? If you're gonna allow the SBR crowd to play, why not allow the AR pistol crowd to play too? A lot of them could be just waiting on their tax stamp. There's no advantage to shooting with just the buffer tube, so why exclude them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 "Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes" Why include this? If you're gonna allow the SBR crowd to play, why not allow the AR pistol crowd to play too? A lot of them could be just waiting on their tax stamp. There's no advantage to shooting with just the buffer tube, so why exclude them? Mainly because I'm ignorant in the ways of AR pistols. Doesn't an AR pistol still shoot .223/5.56? I'm going to assume not. The original intent, when I submitted the request for the BoD to consider, is to add a division like rimfire rifle where everyone shoots either a Ruger 10/22 or M&P 15-22, and everyone starts with the rifle shouldered and pointing at the aiming cone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2MoreChains Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Thanks for sharing Zack. I guess now we wait and see what the BoD comes up with after their in person meeting. So if I am reading it correctly, you proposed adding 2 divisions to SCSA: PCC Open (dot) and PCC Irons (or something like that)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Thanks for sharing Zack. I guess now we wait and see what the BoD comes up with after their in person meeting. So if I am reading it correctly, you proposed adding 2 divisions to SCSA: PCC Open (dot) and PCC Irons (or something like that)? Happy to share what I know. If I hear anything else along the way I'll pass it along. From the discussions I've read on various forums this could be big. ETA: Single Division. Within it you can shoot open or irons. Edited December 14, 2015 by ZackJones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I don't think they should break out into two divisions. Dot's for rifles can be had pretty cheap and even iron sights on a short barreled rifle are much more accurate due to increased sight radius over what we are used to on pistols. Almost all 3 Gun competitions now toss Irons and zero magnification rifles into the same division. Also, I don't think it makes much sense to restrict based on muzzle device. Most will come with a flash hider already. Folks should be able to run with that or swap out for a brake. Also, we should have some provision allowing silencers/suppressors. I really do think a run what you brung for PPC makes the most sense. Unless someone can point to particular technologies on the PCCs that would constitute a big disadvantage over other setups. I am curious how we would handle pistol braces too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 "Must have stock attached and fired from shoulder position - yes" Why include this? If you're gonna allow the SBR crowd to play, why not allow the AR pistol crowd to play too? A lot of them could be just waiting on their tax stamp. There's no advantage to shooting with just the buffer tube, so why exclude them? Mainly because I'm ignorant in the ways of AR pistols. Doesn't an AR pistol still shoot .223/5.56? I'm going to assume not. The original intent, when I submitted the request for the BoD to consider, is to add a division like rimfire rifle where everyone shoots either a Ruger 10/22 or M&P 15-22, and everyone starts with the rifle shouldered and pointing at the aiming cone. There are quite a few 9mm AR pistols out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdcguns Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) I am curious how we would handle pistol braces too. Based on what's been discussed so far, braces wouldn't be allowed. Rules say attached stock is required. Of course it's all subject to change though. Edited December 14, 2015 by gdcguns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I am curious how we would handle pistol braces too. Based on what's been discussed so far, braces wouldn't be allowed. Rules say attached stock is required. Of course it's all subject to change though. Why would the rules require that? If someone wanted to shoot without a stock of think they would be at a disadvantage so why prohibit it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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