Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[thermobollocks]

A 3-gun match that can be shot entirely with a PCC has failed to adequately test speed, power, and accuracy.

The WSB and shooter confusion stuff is no worse than requiring people to remember "port arms" as well as "hands naturally at sides." The safe area stuff is the same as a pistol, but it does mean that ROs will have to say "if clear, hammer down, action open" instead of "if clear, hammer down, holster." The average rifle takes about as long to get ready as the average open gunner.

[Beastly]

...Just because a few existing USPSA shooters would like to rampage through a pistol stage with their Open blaster does not justify a whole new division and baggage it brings with it. ...

I find this amusing when I substitute Open for PCC. Double muffed half-deaf competitors, soon to be half-deaf single muffed RO's running lots of shooters; fiddling with red dot optics with battery issues, dust, rain, blinding sunlight; funky open guns that don't run, etc.

... The third thing I don't want is the additional stage time (Day light) lost in the Make Ready and Unload / Show clear processes

What about current elaborate Make-Ready procedures that take forever? Truthfuly I don't really care, but why would we not care about or bound this and then make a big deal about something else with much less impact?

Unload/Show Clear, insert chamber flag vs. holster, then carry PCC with muzzle in safe direction for rack/bag/whatever. What is so hard?

[teros135]

...Just because a few existing USPSA shooters would like to rampage through a pistol stage with their Open blaster does not justify a whole new division and baggage it brings with it. ...

I find this amusing when I substitute Open for PCC. Double muffed half-deaf competitors, soon to be half-deaf single muffed RO's running lots of shooters; fiddling with red dot optics with battery issues, dust, rain, blinding sunlight; funky open guns that don't run, etc.

... The third thing I don't want is the additional stage time (Day light) lost in the Make Ready and Unload / Show clear processes

What about current elaborate Make-Ready procedures that take forever? Truthfuly I don't really care, but why would we not care about or bound this and then make a big deal about something else with much less impact?

Unload/Show Clear, insert chamber flag vs. holster, then carry PCC with muzzle in safe direction for rack/bag/whatever. What is so hard?

That's a good idea. Insult the existing USPSA shooters, then expect them to be happy with your intrusion into their home sport. That gonna work, you think?

[rowdyb]

My local USPSA club runs a steel match 3 or 4 times a year that has both the regular pistol divisions and a PCC division. There is no issue in the two shooting the same stages at the same time. Not in scoring, not in safety, not in match admin, not in target location. Nothing. Changing out steel for paper targets will not change this. I shoot this match with both pistol and pcc and have for years. I am not talking hypotheticals but real experience.

As in a stand and shoot steel match? Or a run and gun Uspsa match with only steel targets. This would be apples and oranges.

Run and gun, 26-30 round stages. No stand and shoot. Mixed squads of pcc and pistol shooters. I can post video if you wish.

[BillD]

Video would be great!

[Beastly]

On uprange starts: I played with it a few times, easy to keep muzzle safely at my feet, but I don't have a problem with getting rid of it either for noobs. Pistol turn and draw for noobs is interesting in its own right - but somehow we make it work. Low ready (my preference) or perhaps port arms (high ready) also works. PCC competes with PCC - that's that. Classifiers just need to have a consistent start and be PCC calibrated. Again, not seeing the showstopper issue here.

Another comment on muzzling. First response: Don't do/allow that, 4 rules and all. If I'm going to get accidentally muzzled I choose the bagged gun or chamber flag. When a rule shows up that says muzzling with an unbagged gun is OK feel free to have the dead stick debate.

I've got more confidence that I know the state of a long gun with a chamber flag in it than I do of a holstered handgun that 'should' be clear.

[rowdyb]

My local USPSA club runs a steel match 3 or 4 times a year that has both the regular pistol divisions and a PCC division. There is no issue in the two shooting the same stages at the same time. Not in scoring, not in safety, not in match admin, not in target location. Nothing. Changing out steel for paper targets will not change this. I shoot this match with both pistol and pcc and have for years. I am not talking hypotheticals but real experience.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. How does your club handle uprange starts, and weak-hand and strong-hand only shooting?

By either not having them or a close alternate given in the wsb for the pcc guys. There will be some differences but the two, pistols and pcc, can be accommodated safely and in a timely manner onto the same cof. It just takes a little new thinking and consideration.

[bret]

On uprange starts: I played with it a few times, easy to keep muzzle safely at my feet, but I don't have a problem with getting rid of it either for noobs. Pistol turn and draw for noobs is interesting in its own right - but somehow we make it work. Low ready (my preference) or perhaps port arms (high ready) also works. PCC competes with PCC - that's that. Classifiers just need to have a consistent start and be PCC calibrated. Again, not seeing the showstopper issue here.

Another comment on muzzling. First response: Don't do/allow that, 4 rules and all. If I'm going to get accidentally muzzled I choose the bagged gun or chamber flag. When a rule shows up that says muzzling with an unbagged gun is OK feel free to have the dead stick debate.

I've got more confidence that I know the state of a long gun with a chamber flag in it than I do of a holstered handgun that 'should' be clear.

Uprange starts with a PCC?

That is crazy.

[Beastly]

That's a good idea. Insult the existing USPSA shooters, then expect them to be happy with your intrusion into their home sport. That gonna work, you think?

There is no insult, just an observation of what we consider to be acceptable.

I happen to shoot Production anf have a brief make-ready process - for now. I dont grudge these things, but to me, many of the claims of PCC time/inefficiency issues are equivalent to (really no better and no worse) than inherent division characteristics and make-ready processes allowed within the rules.

Imagine if you show USPSA maches and have never seen an Open/Major gun or a lengthy make ready dance with draw(s), sight pictures, reloads, visualization, etc. Imagine you had never seen PCC before. How would reactions differ?

Edited February 2, 2016 by Beastly

[rowdyb]

Not sure how to embed YT videos.

Steel Match with both pistol and pcc

Edited February 1, 2016 by rowdyb

[teros135]

I wasn't speaking of make-ready rituals. Whoever has them, has them. I was speaking of:

"I find this amusing when I substitute Open for PCC. Double muffed half-deaf competitors, soon to be half-deaf single muffed RO's running lots of shooters; fiddling with red dot optics with battery issues, dust, rain, blinding sunlight; funky open guns that don't run, etc."

Why do you feel the need to pick on Open Division shooters? What did they ever do to hurt you? And how does that relate to letting rifles in? You're asking a lot here.

[Beastly]

Uprange starts with a PCC?

That is crazy.

I'm not necessariy a proponent, but I could make it work.

Frankly I can start facing and aimed downrange, turn and face uprange - without breaking the 180. A tad awkward but do-able, at least ith my build. Just turn and lift the muzzle.

[rowdyb]

On uprange starts: I played with it a few times, easy to keep muzzle safely at my feet, but I don't have a problem with getting rid of it either for noobs. Pistol turn and draw for noobs is interesting in its own right - but somehow we make it work. Low ready (my preference) or perhaps port arms (high ready) also works. PCC competes with PCC - that's that. Classifiers just need to have a consistent start and be PCC calibrated. Again, not seeing the showstopper issue here.

Another comment on muzzling. First response: Don't do/allow that, 4 rules and all. If I'm going to get accidentally muzzled I choose the bagged gun or chamber flag. When a rule shows up that says muzzling with an unbagged gun is OK feel free to have the dead stick debate.

I've got more confidence that I know the state of a long gun with a chamber flag in it than I do of a holstered handgun that 'should' be clear.

Uprange starts with a PCC?

That is crazy.

No it's not. Done it, teach it and it is no greater concern than with an uprange pistol start.

[Beastly]

I wasn't speaking of make-ready rituals. Whoever has them, has them. I was speaking of:

"I find this amusing when I substitute Open for PCC. Double muffed half-deaf competitors, soon to be half-deaf single muffed RO's running lots of shooters; fiddling with red dot optics with battery issues, dust, rain, blinding sunlight; funky open guns that don't run, etc."

Why do you feel the need to pick on Open Division shooters? What did they ever do to hurt you? And how does that relate to letting rifles in? You're asking a lot here.

I'm all for Open, but they are (1) noisy and (2) prone to more issues = time consuming. I'm all for Revolvers, but Revolver shooters tend to be sloooow from my perception. I don't begrudge either and they have their place. I might even want to shoot one or both some day.

My point: Realistically, how is PCC any more of a challenge?

Edited February 2, 2016 by Beastly

[bret]

Uprange starts with a PCC?

That is crazy.

I'm not necessariy a proponent, but I could make it work.

Frankly I can start facing and aimed downrange, turn and face uprange - without breaking the 180. A tad awkward but do-able, at least ith my build. Just turn and lift the muzzle.

Uprange pistol start, pistol is holstered, trigger completely covered by holster, in single action guns, safety is on.

Uprange PCC start trigger guard is not covered very hard fur R.O. to know,when the safety conms off and trigger is on guard.

In 3 gun we never do Uprange starts with a rifle or shotgun.

[Beastly]

I'm OK with: We don't want to consider / do it because (safety, visibility, noobs, etc.).

Consider where we are today:

RO's can't generally see when the safety goes off on the draw with [light trigger] SAO guns either. Did the safety go of before or after the gun cleared the holster and the competitor's leg and was pointed downrange?

RO's (probably) can see Pistol AND PCC safety condition and trigger finger position before the start beep.

[rowdyb]

Yep, just takes a little thought to how you add the start for pcc to the wsb and all is well. Again, my experience shooting them at the same time, on the same cof tells me it isn't that difficult to incorporate the two. The biggest benefit I see is not having a club have to secure another range day.

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than Open, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

And if you missed the video link earlier to the type of match I'm using to draw my conclusions from here you go again, STEEL Pistol and PCC

Edited February 2, 2016 by rowdyb

[d_striker]

Rowdy-Are those people participating in PCC running it as a second gun?

ETA-Just watched vid and it looks like you were running it as a second gun.

Edited February 2, 2016 by d_striker

[teros135]

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than SS, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

Why do you think this isn't a regional (or local) variance (13% PCC)? I don't recall seeing any rifles in matches I shot all last year, including into the winter. Is yours a club that actively promotes PCC?

[motosapiens]

My local USPSA club runs a steel match 3 or 4 times a year that has both the regular pistol divisions and a PCC division. There is no issue in the two shooting the same stages at the same time. Not in scoring, not in safety, not in match admin, not in target location. Nothing. Changing out steel for paper targets will not change this. I shoot this match with both pistol and pcc and have for years. I am not talking hypotheticals but real experience.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. How does your club handle uprange starts, and weak-hand and strong-hand only shooting?

By either not having them or a close alternate given in the wsb for the pcc guys. There will be some differences but the two, pistols and pcc, can be accommodated safely and in a timely manner onto the same cof. It just takes a little new thinking and consideration.

And there you go. This is sort of the heart of the matter. What it boils down to is that for those of us who aren't interested in shooting a pcc, having them in our matches is going to require changes.

Those changes certainly won't make the matches a better experience for us, so the only other possibilities are it will be a wash, or it will be worse. I am loathe to take chances on something that might make my match day experience worse.

If it means we can't use stages with certain kinds of props, or it changes what our possible start positions are, or it requires RO's to learn a whole new routine for something they don't have interest in, then why would I want to incorporate it into my match?

OTOH, I remain open to the idea that it could be incorporated in a reasonable manner, and I'm willing to let someone else do the work and demonstrate that. If it turns out that matches local to me start letting people run 2 guns (not a good idea imho), I will at least take advantage of it by running ss major and ss minor, which should provide some valuable data.

[motosapiens]

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than SS, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

Why do you think this isn't a regional (or local) variance (13% PCC)? I don't recall seeing any rifles in matches I shot all last year, including into the winter. Is yours a club that actively promotes PCC?

I've only seen 1 PCC outside a store, ever (my father in law's hi-point).

[teros135]

Indeed. I'm planning on buying one. Well, maybe four, for parts for the first one.

(Actually I hear they're fairly good, for the price.)

[outerlimits]

Yep, just takes a little thought to how you add the start for pcc to the wsb and all is well. Again, my experience shooting them at the same time, on the same cof tells me it isn't that difficult to incorporate the two. The biggest benefit I see is not having a club have to secure another range day.

Speaking again of our local match the number of shooters from the one this weekend broke down like this:

Open-8

Limited Ten-3

Production-34

Limited-29

Single Stack-20

Carry Optics-3

PCC-15

PCC had more than SS, L10 and CO combined. I doubt this is a regional variance either.

And if you missed the video link earlier to the type of match I'm using to draw my conclusions from here you go again, STEEL Pistol and PCC

pistol grip and a hi cap mag?

[d_striker]

My local USPSA club runs a steel match 3 or 4 times a year that has both the regular pistol divisions and a PCC division. There is no issue in the two shooting the same stages at the same time. Not in scoring, not in safety, not in match admin, not in target location. Nothing. Changing out steel for paper targets will not change this. I shoot this match with both pistol and pcc and have for years. I am not talking hypotheticals but real experience.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. How does your club handle uprange starts, and weak-hand and strong-hand only shooting?

By either not having them or a close alternate given in the wsb for the pcc guys. There will be some differences but the two, pistols and pcc, can be accommodated safely and in a timely manner onto the same cof. It just takes a little new thinking and consideration.

And there you go. This is sort of the heart of the matter. What it boils down to is that for those of us who aren't interested in shooting a pcc, having them in our matches is going to require changes.

Those changes certainly won't make the matches a better experience for us, so the only other possibilities are it will be a wash, or it will be worse. I am loathe to take chances on something that might make my match day experience worse.

If it means we can't use stages with certain kinds of props, or it changes what our possible start positions are, or it requires RO's to learn a whole new routine for something they don't have interest in, then why would I want to incorporate it into my match?

OTOH, I remain open to the idea that it could be incorporated in a reasonable manner, and I'm willing to let someone else do the work and demonstrate that. If it turns out that matches local to me start letting people run 2 guns (not a good idea imho), I will at least take advantage of it by running ss major and ss minor, which should provide some valuable data.

That's a pretty good assessment.

The other thing that keeps getting thrown around with all the talk about new provisional divisions is that they will "grow the sport" to which there are two counter points. I know it's early, but so far, we've seen that it's existing USPSA members that have been taking part in CO. Of course it's only been existing USPSA members voicing their approval for PCC as I fully understand that new, potential members won't be on these forums to voice their approval as they are not in the sport yet.

Let's assume that CO blows up and PCC becomes a provisional division and blows up as well. It's been voiced over and over but I have not heard a viable solution yet to how clubs will handle this growth. With many club matches already maxed out, why do we need growth at this point. It seems like Mike Foley and the rest of HQ are putting the cart before the horse.

There is a match in Aurora that holds two matches per month. When the weather is favorable, these matches are maxed out with 20 person squads. Many people leave mid-match because the wait becomes too long.

If CO and PCC start bringing in hoards of people like many proponents suggest, I won't even bother going to these matches anymore. My time would be better spent going to the range and practicing.

Edited February 2, 2016 by d_striker

[Onepocket]

I know of six guys in my area in the last month that bought PCC. Mostly JP's. Another one ordered a JP today 10 weeks build time.