screwj Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) Hi guys, I wanted to know how you guys feel about pistol classes that aim at defensive/tactical training for people who primarily like more of the gaming/practical side of shooting. There are obvious differences in philosophies and approaches, but I guess I am wondering if you think it is worth attending additional courses like these throughout training mainly for competition. I've been to one recently but I felt there were a lot of philosophical differences in why I shoot versus why they shoot. Now, I understand if the trainer comes from a LEO or tactical training background that shooting will not just be about fundamentals and application of those fundamentals in tactical scenarios, but when the point of training was more about how to best offensively/defensively subdue an enemy target(s), I feel like that's not what I am primarily training for. My main goal at the moment is to get better in USPSA in different divisions. Maybe I have the wrong mindset; maybe I should be more mindful from a self-protection/armed citizen perspective (I feel like I am, but not to a point of trying to address 1000 scenarios where I would run into extremists or home invasions). Since many of you in these forums are competitive shooters, what are your thoughts? Thanks, Screwj Edited December 6, 2015 by screwj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Go with Max Michel. I just finished a class with him on Saturday. Best money I have spent in practical shooting. Phenomenal teacher of Practical Shooting. Good luck.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 My main goal is to get better in USPSA in different divisions. Depends on where you live - if you're in the South East, Manny Bragg in Frostproof is excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Any trainer worth the time will come to you.. It's easiest and cheapest no matter whom you choose, to put together a class or join a class that is getting put together near your location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just4FunLP Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) I really know nothing about tactical stuff, but from talking to those guys and watching them in matches, it appears that they come at it from a different angle. I consider what I do for practicing for USPSA to be for sport. It may be counterproductive for law enforcement guys. I will say that the two best USPSA competitors in my town are law enforcement officers that have trained heavily for competitive shooting. Edited December 6, 2015 by Just4FunLP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chs3131 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 There are a lot of cross over in tacticas however some not. Specific things like "tactical sequence" and other match rules can be a big no no in the real world. Also there are some things that are done in comp to save time that are not done on the street. That all said, There are things that the tier 1 military guys and LE learn from comp shooters such as speed, draw time, target trans, and so on. Its all knowing what tactics are applicable for comp vs street. Ton of great instructors in the US. What state are you in. I train / teach all over and know a lot of great instructors. I recommend a good tuned up instructor that teaches real world tactics, not sand box, tactics from war. Shooting is shooting, correct but there is a lot more that is taught in a good class that is going to be geared at fighting in a urban US environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I spent two days this week putting our Company "B" SRT Team through 8 USPSA style stages. I got a few comments/questions about the application of tactics vs. shooting for speed/points. So, I talked with one of my GM friends who is also a full time SWAT cop in a large metro area in Texas. His take is that competitive shooting has nothing to do with tactics. Whether it's USPSA, 3 Gun or SWAT Competitions, when the shooting is timed, it becomes a game. With that said, competition shooting is about good marksmanship under stress/pressure of the clock. And obviously, good marksmanship is always a good thing to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 when the shooting is timed, it becomes a game. +1. And a dangerous "game" when applied to serious shooting. We tend to do, under pressure, what we do in practice. And, dropping a mag at the wrong time can be a poor decision. So can assuming that 2 shots settles it, and time to holster, or worse, show clear. I remember hearing about a LEO who got into a gun fight with his rifle, and he calmly aimed and ejected each cartridge in his rifle, without once firing it. Then he picked up the brass. Lots of great things about these games (I love them), but some danger also in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 when the shooting is timed, it becomes a game. +1. And a dangerous "game" when applied to serious shooting. We tend to do, under pressure, what we do in practice. And, dropping a mag at the wrong time can be a poor decision. So can assuming that 2 shots settles it, and time to holster, or worse, show clear. I remember hearing about a LEO who got into a gun fight with his rifle, and he calmly aimed and ejected each cartridge in his rifle, without once firing it. Then he picked up the brass. Lots of great things about these games (I love them), but some danger also in the real world. I think you missed the point. While it's a game, it's also teaches us/them good gun handling while improving the marksmanship under pressure. While I'm not a SWAT cop, I can assure you that USPSA has done nothing but help me with my LE gun skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay870 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I think it depends a lot on where you are in your development, and I'd also draw a distinction between a traditional solid "Tactical/Defensive Pistol" class and the seemingly increasingly common "Tactical Operator Fantasy Camp" classes. I'm a gamer, and I've taken USPSA specific training, but I will say that the BEST training I have ever received was a 3 day Defensive Pistol 101 class with Randy Cain / Cumberland Tactics. That class could have just as easily been titled "Fundamentals of Handgun Shooting, Handling and Malfunction Clearance 101 with Bonus Material on Defensive Mindset", but Defensive Pistol 101 rolls of the tongue easier. If you are a newer shooter or even just newer to taking it seriously I think this style of class would be even more beneficial than a competition oriented class towards your overall shooting skill. Once your fundamentals are solid then absolutely put your training dollars and time into competition classes if that is where you interests lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chs3131 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Comp shooting will not teach good tacticls as to movement and so on but there are some good things that mil and LE can take away such as good shooting fundimentals, how to speed up reloads, transitioning from target to target. as a cop I live by the rule of not doing things that are going to get me hurt and some of the rules in matches are not geared for that. That said, matches still force all shooter to preform under stress. Now from my side, when I shoot matches I do not score as high as the guys that strictly shoot comp. Its because when I shoot a match I use the skill set that I would use everyday. Thus I get dinged for certain proceedurals and generally slower in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 when the shooting is timed, it becomes a game. +1. And a dangerous "game" when applied to serious shooting. We tend to do, under pressure, what we do in practice. I think you missed the point. While it's a game, it's also teaches us/them good gun handling under pressure. Guess I may have phrased that incorrectly - I really don't "miss the point" of action shooting improving our shooting ability. Matter of fact, I think it's great, and a lot of fun in the process. BUT, there are some things that we do, as standard process, in our matches and practice, that could get us hurt iff we did them in the field. Fun?, yes. Educational?, yes. Some possible incorrect tactical responses deeply ingrained?, Also, sadly, YES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwj Posted December 17, 2015 Author Share Posted December 17, 2015 There are a lot of cross over in tacticas however some not. Specific things like "tactical sequence" and other match rules can be a big no no in the real world. Also there are some things that are done in comp to save time that are not done on the street. That all said, There are things that the tier 1 military guys and LE learn from comp shooters such as speed, draw time, target trans, and so on. Its all knowing what tactics are applicable for comp vs street. Ton of great instructors in the US. What state are you in. I train / teach all over and know a lot of great instructors. I recommend a good tuned up instructor that teaches real world tactics, not sand box, tactics from war. Shooting is shooting, correct but there is a lot more that is taught in a good class that is going to be geared at fighting in a urban US environment. I'm based out in the SoCal area; even with all the rules and laws around here, there's even more people who are shooting enthusiasts and sporting matches than I would imagine. However, looking good instructors that are local are somewhat hard to come by unless I pay a hefty amount of fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronsdmf Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) In competition you have to shoot,move and think all under pressure. Those fundamentals are helpful in a dangerous situation as well. If you have half a brain a lot of the gamer "will get you killed in the streets" tactics is a self correcting problem when bullets come at you. Self preservation is hard wired Edited December 20, 2015 by aaronsdmf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chutist Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) I have some personal experience - 20+ years in both LE and USPSA. My experience is my time spent shooting USPSA saved me from serious injury in my one On-Duty shooting. I was able to draw and stop a threat attacking me - I'd guess the whole encounter was under 2 seconds. My partner wasn't even out of the holster. Skills are skills. To the OP's question - if you're trying to be a better USPSA shooter, go take a class aimed at THAT. I took one a Looong time ago and it helped me a great deal. And I'm ready to go again. Edited December 20, 2015 by Chutist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 +10 for the Max Michel class great education for the money and you will leave the class already better than when yuo started it. TActical training is also very good but it is for a different purpose and use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilBunniFuFu Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Trigger time is trigger time. As long as you go in with an open mind you can learn something from anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Great statement above, sooooo true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwithnoname Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Lilbunnifufu- 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunBugBit Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Tactical Applications of Practical Shooting (TAPS) by retired 1st SFOD-D ("Delta Force") Sergeant Major Patrick McNamara is one work that tries to bridge the worlds of gaming-type shooting and combat shooting. It is a straightforward little book from an author who is more than qualified to write and teach on the topic. He pokes a little fun at some of the things that are taught in tactical shooting courses and seems to have some affection for the shooting sports, having run matches for a period in his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now