First Time Open Gun Purchase...

[cj36d]

Finished up my first season of USPSA this year in Production, and I'm totally hooked! Got out to Production Nationals, IPSC Nats, couple of Sectionals and Area matches, lots of fun... Had a great time shooting a few different production guns but the boys with the comps and the dots seem to be having even more fun... So, I've read a few posts on the forums, and there's some good info here and there but really not a thread that starts with the "for dummies" level of introductory information on Open Guns. Looking for some help here on what I should be looking for and where I should be headed with my search...especially tips on any research materials: threads, videos, websites, books, etc...

Here's a couple of things I've read and heard thus far (help me out if any of this is bum gouge), and some questions I still have:

• SV and STI are the two prevailing platforms out there (caspian a distant 3rd), and each of the custom shops for the most part does custom fitting of these parts, making some of their own custom sub components such as slides and comps to fit on them. Am I missing something there? Which is which? Which is better (more reliable, more durable, etc...)?
• After reading a myriad of posts it sounds like each of the major custom builders is really just a matter of choice, versatility of components used, "preceived" quality, cost and wait time...still don't understand the various levels of "custom"...as an example STI is basically a mass producer with little to no wait, while Akai is highly customized (down to selecting your exact sub components) with huge wait times...is there a good comparison guide out there? I'm open to opinions...
• 38 super versus 9mm is the largest debate of the decade...this year i've loaded 30k 9mm rounds, and another 10k so far getting ready for next year...might stick with 9mm major just to simplify my reloading...any fatal flaws with that? (I could always buy a second press and set it up for 38super but i'd like to avoid it if possible)
• 2 Big sticks and 4 small sticks seems the wise advice...any arguments?
• CMore seems like the standard dot...
• Overall, I'm a little sketptical on dropping $5k-6k no knowing too much about the machines themselves. Not averse to it, I can spend the coin, just want to feel like I know more. Over the off season, I'll be reaching out to some of my shooting buddies to try some of their rigs and get a feel for them and see what I like and what I don't. Any specific things i should look at, or questions I should be asking?
• I'm an instant gratification dude, who has no problem paying for quality work...I am not a dude who is going to sit around on my thumbs for 18 months waiting for my name to pop up on a list...does that create any special recommendations?

Thanks in advance for any insights!

Chris

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Look for a used 9mm Tru Bor setup. You will learn a lot just by shooting it a lot. After 2 years of shooting open you will start to learn what you like in an open gun and what setup works for you. Find a smith that is near you if you can and one that knows the 2011 platform very well. Learn the gun yourself and what is takes to keep it running smoothly. Lastly shoot as many open pistols as you can before buying one. You may find that the noise and violent concussion from it is not for you. Thanks, Eric

[cj36d]

Thanks Eric...I'll definitely be looking for opportunities to try some toys out. So I'm interested, why a trubor and not something else in terms of a used platform?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Instead of spending $5 - 6,000 for a "custom" gun, the TruBor, brand new,

is closer to $2,700 - and used is less investment in your experiment.

I bought a TruBor, new, slicked up by Brazos six years ago, and still

love it. Its 9mm - NOTHING wrong with 9mm major.

Eric's idea is to lower your initial investment until you decide what you

want, based on experience.

Actually, one 170 and 2 140's is all you need, but the more the merrier.

You do need a chrono to load 9mm major.

Good luck with OPEN - I gave up shooting all my other guns once I

got my TruBor.

[Sarge]

Thanks Eric...I'll definitely be looking for opportunities to try some toys out. So I'm interested, why a trubor and not something else in terms of a used platform?

A Trubor is an STI off the shelf gun that won't cost you An arm and a leg. Pretty typical offering in a non custom full size gun.

[tcazes]

Iv shot an egm custom for a match. Much prefer my trubor. Shot a ck arms...much prefer my trubor. As long as my mags stay clean iv never had an issue. I say find a used trubor.

[3gunDQ]

I recommend 38 supercomp... There just ain't enough room in 9mm for all that powder and you can only shoot brass once. I shoot my supercomp brass a dozen times and then leave them on the range at the match.. People pick it up just not me. If you buy 9mm you'll need a source for once fired brass like a cop range.

If I were you I'd get a 5" Bedell Custom built, you would have the gun near spring 2016 and have a sho-nuff shooter. Otherwise I'd have SV build me a gun or I'd find a used SV in good shape.

No matter what you decide it is going to take you a while to learn to track the dot, learn the snatch out instead of down and out and get into the new gun... Throw your budget out the window if you want to get into a solid custom shooter next year, I would... You gotta pay to play in open dude.

[Tino2212]

That you can shoot 9 major brass only once is nonsense i reload my brass at least 6 times before i leave it at the range .

And that is just to be save there are stil no signs than that i have to do this .

[Hi-Power Jack]

That you can shoot 9 major brass only once is nonsense

+1. We've had this discussion here many times, and there are some people who

use only 1x fired brass, once, and discard. BUT, there are MANY of us

who shoot 9mm Major until the brass cracks (usually gone before that).

[cj36d]

Definitely open to an entry level used machine...interested in folks thoughts on what the right platform is?

Heard one vote for Truebore from Jack...any other votes?

If the answer is to start used, I'd prefer to stay under $4k...on a side note, should I try to get a bundle with mags and all, or is it smarter to buy those separate?

[Sarge]

Definitely open to an entry level used machine...interested in folks thoughts on what the right platform is?

Heard one vote for Truebore from Jack...any other votes?

If the answer is to start used, I'd prefer to stay under $4k...on a side note, should I try to get a bundle with mags and all, or is it smarter to buy those separate?

9mm MAJOR can be reloaded over and over....

and over. If it could only be used once I would just shoot 38.

There is no way in hell I would go anywhere near $4k for a used gun when you can buy a new CK Arms for less than that! Shooters Connection probably has one in stock.

As far as mags go I personally bought STI tubes , grams guts and TT base pads from Shooters Connection and put them together.

[tcazes]

Definitely open to an entry level used machine...interested in folks thoughts on what the right platform is?

Heard one vote for Truebore from Jack...any other votes?

If the answer is to start used, I'd prefer to stay under $4k...on a side note, should I try to get a bundle with mags and all, or is it smarter to buy those separate?

My vote was trubor as well. Got mine used with 1 big stick and 2 140s for 2500. All I had to do was get the barrel fit. I run 9major till they just get left at the range cause I'm to lazy. Grams guts for 38 super in sti tubes with montana golds loaded to 1.17 and no spacers run beautifully for me. All in all I'd say I have maybe 2700 in my whole rig including belt and mag pouches. I'm not even looking for another gun I like it so much compared to the "custom" guns from limcat, sv, emg, and bedell...

[NoSteel]

You may want to add a CZ Czechmate to your list. A full NEW ready to run package with mags will run you ~ $3k and they are finally becoming more available (gun broker). We have several being run in our club and they seem to run very well. They are 9mm Major and come with a spare barrel to run minor limited / 3 gun, etc...

Edited November 29, 2015 by NoSteel

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I suggest a Tru Bor since a lot can be done to one as you progress in your shooting. 9mm since you can find cheap once fired brass and reload it till it splits or the primers don't stay in. I am also giving room to buy a Dillon for reloading. If you get a blued gun you can see if the frame bites you anywhere and polish that area so it does not. Like I suggested above find a good local gunsmith who knows the 2011 platform. Personally I would just look at the 2011 guns since you can get any parts you may want to change easily and cheaper than some others. For mags it is up to you whether you like to reload big sticks or to a 140. I know guys who use all 170's and guys who use a combo and even some who use just 140's. Don't get in a rush, there are some good deals out there if you are not impatient. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric

[cj36d]

Definitely open to an entry level used machine...interested in folks thoughts on what the right platform is?

Heard one vote for Truebore from Jack...any other votes?

If the answer is to start used, I'd prefer to stay under $4k...on a side note, should I try to get a bundle with mags and all, or is it smarter to buy those separate?

My vote was trubor as well. Got mine used with 1 big stick and 2 140s for 2500. All I had to do was get the barrel fit. I run 9major till they just get left at the range cause I'm to lazy. Grams guts for 38 super in sti tubes with montana golds loaded to 1.17 and no spacers run beautifully for me. All in all I'd say I have maybe 2700 in my whole rig including belt and mag pouches. I'm not even looking for another gun I like it so much compared to the "custom" guns from limcat, sv, emg, and bedell...

Good insight...i'm leaning toward 38 super to avoid the spacers and it would give me an excuse to buy another press and dedicate it to that load, I have heard of some magazine reliability issues with spacers out there if they are not kept super clean.

That pricing seems to make good sense...a couple hundred bucks for pouches and a holster, and another $2500-$3000 for the gun and mags.

Thanks for the tip!

[Tino2212]

If you use " old SVI" or SPS mags you dont need spacers with STI you do .

I have both STI with spacers and SPS without never had a issue with either of them .

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Spacers are not a problem at all. Metal spacers and good followers/ springs. If you go 38 unless you get your brass back it will cost you approx $20 per match for just the brass. I can buy 1000 once fired 9mm for $35. Powder and bullets are about the same unless you use VV powders. So if you do the math for 38 since you shot over 30,000 9mm this year and 38 brass is about 0.15 each. That equals a big number. Now do the math for 9mm. If you get all your brass back that is another story. Since you will go to lost brass matches that will not happen. In the end it is up to you which way you go but I can tell you that I have seen guys leave shooting open in 38 because of the brass prices and availability. Thanks, Eric

[ano]

I never ran spacers, never had feeding issues, SVI/MBX mags.

Only issues I ever had with 9 major is exctraction, aftec mostly cured it, but now I have superworn 170mm springs in oldest svi mags, replaceing fixes it though.

I have both 38SC barrel and 9 major barrel

I got lots of 38SC brass, and loaded ammo... yet this season Ive shot 99% 9 major. its so nice not worrying about brass

[shotgunone]

+1 on STI Trubor in 9 major. I bought mine brand new for under $2500. Granted it took some looking and I might have been lucky. That being said if I had been looking at $2800 for a trubor and money wasn't an object I'd look for the DVC. Seem to be coming with racker, slide lightening, hard chrome, better trigger, two mags (the one I've seen have had 140 & 170 mag), and for about $500 over the Trubor.

I've had no problem reloading 9 major brass multiple times. I do however inspect the brass I load to major velocities extra carefully.

However I'm perfectly happy with my stock Trubor and will customize it to my liking as I go.

Edited November 29, 2015 by shotgunone

[tcazes]

I'm running no spacers and have no problems at all when loaded out to 1.17. I use 7.5gr wac so no compressing powders or anything. Feeds like a champ but hey if you want 38 super by all means go for it. I just like stupid cheap and abundant brass lol

[3gunDQ]

run that 9 major brass all you want... it aint me dude, I wont run it at all.

[BeerBaron]

I'll answer your questions as they came and add something at the end:

• SV and STI are the two prevailing platforms out there (caspian a distant 3rd), and each of the custom shops for the most part does custom fitting of these parts, making some of their own custom sub components such as slides and comps to fit on them. Am I missing something there? Which is which? Which is better (more reliable, more durable, etc...)?

SV and SVI are the same 'platform' in that they are both 2011s. Caspian is really not a common option these days (they did make non-modular 2011's and also were a popular choice for top ends some time ago).

The biggest difference is STI have off the shelf models (like a ford for example). SVI is totally custom made one-offs. More like buying a pagani for example. and yes in between are custom builder who use STI or other companies frames and slides and build there own custom guns.

• After reading a myriad of posts it sounds like each of the major custom builders is really just a matter of choice, versatility of components used, "preceived" quality, cost and wait time...still don't understand the various levels of "custom"...as an example STI is basically a mass producer with little to no wait, while Akai is highly customized (down to selecting your exact sub components) with huge wait times...is there a good comparison guide out there? I'm open to opinions...

There isn't really a good guide out there but you'll quickly find our the big names. STI is obviously mass produced on a production line (ie not buy a single gunsmith building a gun). Most out of the box STI's I've seen did not run out of the box and needed work to become reliable (typically new extractor, possibly new mount - again to help ejection - sometimes some trigger work and also sometimes some QC problems). plus they are bog stock and won't have some of the 'niceties' like a slide racker for instance (though finally the new DVC is their first model to have one but it's also close to custom gun money).

• 38 super versus 9mm is the largest debate of the decade...this year i've loaded 30k 9mm rounds, and another 10k so far getting ready for next year...might stick with 9mm major just to simplify my reloading...any fatal flaws with that? (I could always buy a second press and set it up for 38super but i'd like to avoid it if possible)

The ONLY advantage 9mm has over super is cost. but that can be decisive for some. Super has arguably more reliable feeding and running in a 2011. It also opens up some powder/bullet combos that just plain wouldn't work in a 9mm. But the facts are out there plenty of people run 9 major in 2011's and compete just fine.

• 2 Big sticks and 4 small sticks seems the wise advice...any arguments?

That is a fine choice. To start with if budget is an issue you could go 1 big and 3 140's and later add the extra 2 to allow for backup mags etc.

• CMore seems like the standard dot...

yes, cmore slide ride is 100% the way to go at this stage. I prefer them on a 90 degree mount (lower to the bore) but uprights work just fine too.

• Overall, I'm a little sketptical on dropping $5k-6k no knowing too much about the machines themselves. Not averse to it, I can spend the coin, just want to feel like I know more. Over the off season, I'll be reaching out to some of my shooting buddies to try some of their rigs and get a feel for them and see what I like and what I don't. Any specific things i should look at, or questions I should be asking?

That's probably a good idea. it's hard to know exactly what you want in a custom gun when you've not been shooting open. To my mind though the off the shelf STI's like trubores, grandmasters etc aren't great value as they tend always to need some gunsmithing to get them running 100% and you'll likely spend extra on changing out trigger parts, magwell etc to stuff you prefer.

• I'm an instant gratification dude, who has no problem paying for quality work...I am not a dude who is going to sit around on my thumbs for 18 months waiting for my name to pop up on a list...does that create any special recommendations?

I think given you don't want a $5,000+ custom. But you appreciate quality. AND you want instant gratification I would strongly suggest a CK arms thunder or hardcore open would be a good choice. Cost is $3,500 but it comes with optic. High quality parts all through it. is built by custom builder gunsmiths and has the configuration on it that they find suits most shooters. Later your preference may sway you to other options but the CK will suit most and it should hold value well if you ever do need to sell it.

CK is a joint venture between Matt Cheely and Bobby Keigans. both well know custom gunsmiths (freedom gunworks and cheely custom guns).

They offer lifetime warranty.

They are available off the shelf or at very short wait times and should most definitely run straight out of the box.

They already have all the top gear like slide racker, quality trigger parts, ICE style magwell, titanium compensator, high quality PVD finish etc etc.

I really think that will best suit your needs and give you a really solid entry into open. On the 9 vs super thing I like super. To me the extra versatility and reliability is worth the cost. But i'm in a place where the difference in cost between 9 and super is not as great and tend to get most brass back at matches and practice. If the cost difference were a problem for me and was going to curtail my shooting then I'd certainly switch to 9mm.

Both the thunder and hardcore models (only difference between them is the slide cuts) come in either silver or black PVD and have some colour options like full black controls etc too.

here's a black hardcore (they have 1 in stock right now):

http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/CK-Arms-Hardcore-Open-Gun-Slide-Ride-38S-Blk-SS-Controls-P3885.aspx

Here's a black thunder (2 in stock apparently):

http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/CK-Arms-Thunder-Open-Gun-Slide-Ride-9mm-BlackSilver-Controls-P3948.aspx

I'd recommend one like this (black thunder and comes with a 90 mount). as the 90 mount makes the transition from iron sights to dot very easy.

http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/CK-Arms-Thunder-Open-Gun-Slide-Ride-9mm-BlackSilver-Controls-90-Degree-Mount-P3972.aspx

[Slostang]

Another +1 for CK. I picked up a very lightly used (500rds) CK hardcore open for $3k locally. I was planning on picking up a Trubor and tweaking it to my needs but for the money I would've spent on the Trubor fixing it up I got a much better gun.

[jnr88]

I just started myself. There is no reason to buy a new gun unless you want to. There are a steady stream of used guns on the forum for less than $3000 that have all the competition upgrades and possible magazines. The Tru Bor recommendations are spot on and you can always ask for opinions about builders on the open forum. You may not always get consensus.

[cj36d]

...lots of good responses...

Baron, Sweet info...I really appreciate all the responses in there and a lot to think about.

I've had some talk today with Adam over at Atlas Gun Works...Interested if anyone else has any input on them. I've read some good stuff, and Adam definitely has some great ideas at a decent price and lead time. I'm thinking it may be a less than infinity pricing option with better lead time, and still get something tailored to my liking.

Thoughts?