Is there a place in our sport for rifle shots beyond 60 yards?

[Doug H.]

No all I said was that Armalite ALWAYS called it a carbine so any AR-15/M-16 varrient in 223 would be a carbine. Can you have a 223 rifle? Sure just not if it is an AR. Sure you can have a 308 carbine short barrel and all......BUT NOW YOU ARE ONCE AGAIN NOT TALKING ABOUT RIFLE SHOTS!!! You would be talking about CARBINE SHOTS!....Or major thread piracy Avast yee prepare to be boarded!

Armalite may have always called it a carbine but the US Army calls it a rifle or carbine depending on the model. In the Army Rifle Marksmanship Manual, FM 3-22.9, the following designations are listed: M-4 Series, Carbine; M16A2/A3 Rifle; M16A4 Rifle; M16A1 Rifle.

Doug

Edited October 22, 2015 by Doug H.

[Stlhead]

I don't always shoot a carbine, but when I do, I prefer to shot at visible targets of approximately 4 MOA that are visible and between 80 -400 yards.

[Doug H.]

I don't always shoot a carbine, but when I do, I prefer to shot at visible targets of approximately 4 MOA that are visible and between 80 -400 yards.

Stay thirsty for long shots my friend!

[bmiller]

I don't always shoot a carbine, but when I do, I prefer to shot at visible targets of approximately 4 MOA that are visible and between 80 -400 yards.

Stay thirsty for long shots my friend!

+1

[Jim Norman]

And the winner is 4MOA. anything smaller is not a 3gun match, but a DM or Sniper match. Look at the target sizes for the Sniper Challenge at Rockcastle in january. they have some really small targets.

For us, with our 180 second time frame this makes sense. 4" at 100 yards, you really ought to be able to hit this. 16" at 400 yards and 20" at 500 that is a full size IPSC Metric target in width plus about 2 inches!

And call Carbine or call it Rifle this is what we do. You only have 50 yards? OK, 2" targets maybe be generous and use 4", we do it at 100 yards and you should hear the people moan.

Nothing says you can't go larger, just this is about as small as you should go.

And yes, I realize this is a slight drift. but stay thirsty for 4MOA and reasonable long shots. with apologies to Dos XX and StlHead

[kurtm]

Where ever did this 4MOA nonsense come from?

[Bryan 45]

Since we're debating carbine and rifle, and someone had to bring up power factor. Isn't it interesting that the M1 Carbine in .30 Carbine makes a higher power factor than a 5.56?

[Steve RA]

I'd think an equally interesting question would be:

Is there a place in our sport for rifle shots less than 60 yards ???

[Stlhead]

Where ever did this 4MOA nonsense come from?

The same place "visible" came from.

[Vespid_Wasp]

I would really be disappointed if I didn't encounter at least 2/3 stages with some 200+ yard targets at major matches. It is a skillset that needs to be there.

I can get excited about 400-600 yards in moderation.

[BobS761]

It truly doesn't matter to me at what range the targets are, just so long as I can see them with the naked eye.

[dcloudy777]

I'd think an equally interesting question would be:

Is there a place in our sport for rifle shots less than 60 yards ???

I don't want to see the close/fast rifle stuff go away either.

The rifle is by far the most "range-versatile" member of the small arms family... we should be celebrating this, not limiting it.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I feel the long range rifle is fun but at the same time I think it is a deterrence to the sport of 3-gun for the average shooter as most don't have the means to zero their rifles past 100-200 yards much less practice shooting the really long stuff out to 600.

I lost mY go to place for long range practice last year. I definitely won't perform as well as I used to when I could practice it regularly.

[Stlhead]

Jesse, so is it your opinion that the longer ranged shots no longer have a place in our sport? If so give us some reasons, I think you may be the first so far.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, so is it your opinion that the longer ranged shots no longer have a place in our sport? If so give us some reasons, I think you may be the first so far.

I think long range rifle is the most difficult aspect of our sport and it is the most difficult for everyone in the sport to practice.

If you're like me and enjoy competing for a win part of 3-gun and much as the mere act of shooting 3-gun for the fun of shooting then the long range stuff can be a detractor for the average shooter because they can't improve upon the long range aspect of the game at their home range. I was at the old Texas multi gun match once and a newb on our squad watched us shred the 400-500 yard targets. He came up to us afterwards with his jaw on the ground in aww and asked how we did it. We explained our dope and practice routine etc. He then got a distraught look on his face and told us he zeroed his gun at his local indoor range at 25 yards. Kid couldn't even hit a 10" plate at 200.

I don't like going to a match when I'm not fully prepared to compete. That's why I don't shoot PRS. I could get dope to 3-400 then use a ballistic program to figure my holds out to 800 but without being able to regularly test my guns and gear and practice at distance I'm not interested in shooting a match to prove what I already know, that I'm not capable of hitting the long stuff.

That said I know some of those shooters who can't readily shoot longer ranges enjoy coming to big matches with long range targets simply because they get to shoot further then they can at their club despite the fact that they are going to be terrible at it.

Personally I've never shot a match and said later that I wish it was harder and had more long range or tough stuff that I sucked at. Personally I enjoy shooting fast. I'd rather shoot 50 yard off hand rifle shots on every stage and do a bunch of hosing then shoot 500 yards on every stage.

I've never heard anyone complain that a match was too easy, had too much hosing/shooting or that they got done too early.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser

[ericm]

Definitive proof that long shots are a waste of time and resources:

That is all......

ericm

[Stlhead]

Jesse,

You don't shoot with team Highlife, and even if you did it is clear you would not like it. Otherwise you would hear guys who want longer stages, more challenge, more movement. I judge a match by the total number of minutes I spend on the clock shooting vs the time away from my family and work it takes to attend. Fortunate for both of us we can each find matches that scratch our shooting itch. Nice easy matches where the only challenge is how fast you can blaze through simple stages for you, and monster stages with 4+ minute par times for me. And if the world ever turns upside down and all the stages at 3 gun matches are your style then I will find other sports to fill my time with. If I want to shoot a three gun match in a pistol bay I can do it without leaving home.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse,

You don't shoot with team Highlife, and even if you did it is clear you would not like it. Otherwise you would hear guys who want longer stages, more challenge, more movement. I judge a match by the total number of minutes I spend on the clock shooting vs the time away from my family and work it takes to attend. Fortunate for both of us we can each find matches that scratch our shooting itch. Nice easy matches where the only challenge is how fast you can blaze through simple stages for you, and monster stages with 4+ minute par times for me. And if the world ever turns upside down and all the stages at 3 gun matches are your style then I will find other sports to fill my time with. If I want to shoot a three gun match in a pistol bay I can do it without leaving home.

I think we agree. You get to shoot more in less time if you don't shoot long range anything. I can rip off about 20 rounds at targets inside ten yards in the same amount of time it takes to shoot one long range target. Edited October 29, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jim Norman]

Personally I think there is room for shots out to 350+/- in 3-gun. I don't think we need them on every stage or that we need a stage where the shortest shot is 200. If you can run tight shots at 50-100 yards and then closer shots mixed up with challenging pistol and SG shots, that is good. As an example Peacemaker runs a monthly 3Gun, shots range out to near 400 yards, but only one shot, the rest are in under 200 and most are under 100. There is running, there is tight shots, there are stages to figure out the best way to shoot and stages that are straight up do it this way only.

If all you have is 100 yards 50 yards and shorter bays, design stages that work there. We've run dozens of 3-gun at our local club where 100 yards is the max, we make up for that with innovative stage designs. Door breaching, vehicles, odd positions, and so on.

Matches where you need to be able to hit 600 yards and do it fast and well to win are not 3-gun. There are matches where this is the norm, they are I believe refereed to now as DM matches. You want really long? RockCastle Sniper Challenge in January, 1000 yards, unknown distances.

[logiztix]

Long range rifle is where I started. I got talked into IDPA and 3-Gun from there. At my first 3-Gun match I had a 3rd place overall finish on the 'long range' stage out of 25+ shooters. My 3rd-5th place stage finishes the following months were still only around 60% of the points of the overall winner. Once I did the math on points scoring, I quickly realized that most matches don't reward doing 'relatively well' on long-range stages the way they do on others. While every other stage had the majority of shooters at 70% or better the points of the top finisher, most shooters were around 25-40% on the long range stage.

I have since moved to primarily shooting Limited (or Factory) as our two local ranges only have bays out to 200 yards. I have also started using pencil profile barreled rifles that are lighter for quick hosing and rapid transitions and subsequently, can't hold a group when they get hot. That bit me at a major match last summer that had 20+ targets past 200 yards, but for the most part I've otherwise seen minimal benefit in making long-range a training priority. I worked the long-range stage at this match and only 3 out of 150+ shooters even engaged the optional bonus rifle targets. I wasn't one of them, because the scoring math didn't justify it.

[Neomet]

I'm pretty (okay really) lucky to live in Phoenix where I have both a 3GN format in 100Y pistol bays and another match where targets can stretch out to 500Y or so every month. The matches are.... different. If you can't hit long range Kelly Neal and the accuracy brigade will crush you like a bug and you will be lucky to get 50% of points on the stage. At the 3GN match you best have your track shoes on and have practiced your dump and grab techniques (although the 100 yard slug targets were shall we say challenging this month.) I really like both of them. The long range was frustrating at first having not been a rifle shooter at all but now I kind of like it even though I still pretty much suck.

Either format can be as challenging and fun as you want it to be.

[Stlhead]

Jesse, I think we are starting to get on the same page, but I don't just want the long range. On a stage I want 30 targets from 100 in and 20 from 100 out to 400 for rifle, I want a minimum of 25 rounds of birdshot required and 8 slugs, and I want 30-40 pistol minimum. And better yet throw on a few long range bonus targets from 550 -900. Lots or moving, lots of positions. I want everything in my stages. When I go to the indian buffet I eat lots of everything, not just the curry chicken, I want to get my moneys worth. Same thing at a match, I come to shoot, I wants to shoot a lot. It's not long or short, it's short or BOTH.

[Bryan 45]

I've never heard anyone complain that a match was too easy, had too much hosing/shooting or that they got done too early.

There actually have been quite a few complain about a series of matches being too easy. Which is why there are so many good shooters absent from that series of matches.

I personally have never shot a match that was too hard. Can't really imagine that concept, unless the targets were shooting back- and then i quit!

[Benelli Chick]

I've never heard anyone complain that a match was too easy, had too much hosing/shooting or that they got done too early.

There actually have been quite a few complain about a series of matches being too easy. Which is why there are so many good shooters absent from that series of matches.

I personally have never shot a match that was too hard. Can't really imagine that concept, unless the targets were shooting back- and then i quit!

Me too! But wait, what if JJ figures out some sort of paint ball gun shooting back...that would be okay, right? Would you play??? Especially if it's a bunny!

[Jesse Tischauser]

I've never heard anyone complain that a match was too easy, had too much hosing/shooting or that they got done too early.

There actually have been quite a few complain about a series of matches being too easy. Which is why there are so many good shooters absent from that series of matches.

I personally have never shot a match that was too hard. Can't really imagine that concept, unless the targets were shooting back- and then i quit!

I think you mean a lot of shooters complain it's too fast. Not too easy. Those old good shooters aren't as good as they used to be compared to these new studs. I know cause I'm dropping in the finals too. Edited October 30, 2015 by Jesse Tischauser